I've been a vegetarian for two days.

[Aslanna]

To expand upon Winnow's point... You have yet to explain how eating meat is 'gluttony'. My guess is because you mean that any meat consumption > 0 is considered 'excessive'. But since you don't explain yourself I guess it's like how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop: The world may never know.

Anyway, you should probably realize that the 'PETA M.O.' of trying to guilt people into shit is distasteful and pretty much counter-productive to your "cause" in that it drives people away. But I'm sure you wont let that stop you. Fight the good fight!

[Spang]

You have yet to explain how eating meat is 'gluttony'. My guess is because you mean that any meat consumption > 0 is considered 'excessive'.

Now you're getting it! In 2011, it is absolutely unnecessary to slaughter animals for food (I thought I mentioned that already). The people who continue to consume meat, are doing so out of sheer gluttony, not necessity. And if you don't like that word, we can use vanity, which I used previously, but you people didn't like that word, either.

Here's what we do to animals in this country: we torture and/or slaughter animals to hold up our pants; to upholster our chairs; for wallets, handbags, luggage and shoes. For our entertainment: greyhound and horse racing; rodeos, dog fighting and cock fighting; the circus; television and movies; hunting and fishing. And of course, unnecessarily, for food. It's all unnecessary.

[Boogahz]

Vegetarian/vegan gluttons rape Earth's soil of nutrients.

[Lynks]

Vegetarians are stealing food from other animals.

[Aslanna]

Yeah I 'get it' no thanks to having to decipher your code, Leonardo. However I'm not on board with your premise.

[laneela]

I'm convinced you're clueless.

I'm convinced that no amount of words will change your opinion of animals. Look, another one-liner.

See? There it is... You're assuming that because people eat meat, that they don't care about animals - while you, who have been vegetarian for about a third of a year and still wear their skin and I assume still use and consume things tested on and made from animal byproducts are their champion. If you insist on remaining on your pulpit, at least have the courage of your convictions and stop eating dairy, stop wearing leather, do your research and stop using all products tested on animals, etc. Otherwise, you're nothing more than a pretentious hypocrite.

[Spang]

You're assuming that because people eat meat, that they don't care about animals...

Stopping eating animals is a huge step in truly caring about animals. You're right though, until I go vegan, I'll remain a hypocrite. But if I can quit smoking, consuming caffeine and eating meat, I can quit all that other shit. I will, and you all are going to help. I thank you in advance.

[Canelek]

I find it amusing that you new age 20-somethings have sucked the fun out of everything to further your "causes". You stop enjoying food. You quit all things unhealthy. Next, you quit "pleasures of the flesh"...just to prolong your righteous lives 5 more years than the average person who has the occasional steak dinner and blow job.

Good job, hippie. Have fun being passed or run over while driving your hybrid or riding your 10-speed.

[Spang]

You stop enjoying food. You quit all things unhealthy.

I still enjoy the food I eat and drink beer very regularly.

[Leonaerd]

[Aabidano]

Now you're getting it! In 2011, it is absolutely unnecessary to slaughter animals for food (I thought I mentioned that already). The people who continue to consume meat, are doing so out of sheer gluttony, not necessity.

That's a moral argument from someone in a (mostly) food-secure nation.

From a practical perspective a vegitarian diet in our society today is more impacting on the environment and has a larger bykill - "death" rate than an omniverous diet, due to the realities of production and calorie densities of the various products.

The only way to make your vegitarian choice stand up in the context you use it in is to go to a natural\subsistence farming lifestyle. Buying local, farmers markets, etc... help but are a far stretch from what you envision.

Plus that argument only holds water if you only take your consumption strictly at face value. It's like comparing a Prius to a '57 Chevy, yes the Prius is less impacting while you drive it, over it's lifetime from asseembly to destruction the hybrid's environmental cost is far higher. (Not to mention I had multiple cars in\from the 80s that get better mileage than todays' hybrids)

[Xyun]

You're assuming that because people eat meat, that they don't care about animals...

Stopping eating animals is a huge step in truly caring about animals. You're right though, until I go vegan, I'll remain a hypocrite. But if I can quit smoking, consuming caffeine and eating meat, I can quit all that other shit. I will, and you all are going to help. I thank you in advance.

why not go vegan right now you fucking hypocrite? what's the hold up? isn't it your fucking duty you vain gluttonous bitch? Or is your entire life a fucking smoke and mirrors joke? It's 2011! Shit or get off the pot pussy.

[Canelek]

Yeah, what Sand said. Or are you just going to link a picture and not comment.

[Aabidano]

To sum up my attitude, if you don't want to eat meat for whateverer reason, more power to you. Healthier than a standard western diet* too unless you get stupid about it

When you start off into the vegan\PETA-ish propaganda to justify your decision you don't sound all that different to most than some paralell version of a young earth creationist, flat-earther or whatever. I'm sure their views make sense to them too.

*If you follow rates of heart disease and many formerly rare cancers around the world, they track against a pre-proccessed\value-added "US-type" diet very closely.

[Sajko]

After many hours of studying Spang's behaviour in many threads, this included, I have come to the conclusion that he suffers from assburgers.

[Funkmasterr]

This thread is cracking me the fuck up, keep up the good work!

[Boogahz]

I think the chorizo I had this morning is rotting my braaaainzzzzzz

[Funkmasterr]

I just held my turkey/bacon flatbread up to the screen and had it tell spang how much it missed him.

[Spang]

I think the chorizo I had this morning is rotting my braaaainzzzzzz

Actually, it's rotting in your colon.

[Funkmasterr]

Why thank you for the lesson in anatomy, Dr. Dickhead!

[Spang]

Why thank you for the lesson in anatomy, Dr. Dickhead!

Well, that's what meat fucking does after it's eaten by a human. Humans can't digest meat; our stomach acids aren't designed to break it down like a carnivore's, so it rots in the colon until it's able to be shat out the asshole. It actually begins rotting in the intestines.

[Xyun]

Are you a vegan yet? or just a poser?

[Aabidano]

Humans can't digest meat; our stomach acids aren't designed to break it down like a carnivore's, so it rots in the colon until it's able to be shat out the asshole. It actually begins rotting in the intestines.

It's turtles I'm telling you, all the way down!

The stories of "human can't digest meat", "masses of undigested meat clogging your intestines", etc... are just that, stories (for a person with a normal digestive tract).

Right next to it is the people that speak of having high PH food making your blood PH too high and needing to monitor you diet accordingly or you get sick. Absolute BS as well.

[Boogahz]

Why thank you for the lesson in anatomy, Dr. Dickhead!

Well, that's what meat fucking does after it's eaten by a human. Humans can't digest meat; our stomach acids aren't designed to break it down like a carnivore's, so it rots in the colon until it's able to be shat out the asshole. It actually begins rotting in the intestines.

Really? I can't remember the last time I shat a cow*. I should be really backed up if I didn't live in the same dumbfuck world you're in. You can leave now, I don't think anyone wants you anymore...since, like, the plants aren't people too.

Maybe the only reason you pass veggies easier is because your body doesn't WANT them in there!


*I know that my chorizo came from a pig, but I "think" I remember passing a pig at least once before...sure felt like it.

[Spang]

Well, that's what meat fucking does after it's eaten by a human. Humans can't digest meat; our stomach acids aren't designed to break it down like a carnivore's, so it rots in the colon until it's able to be shat out the asshole. It actually begins rotting in the intestines.

Really?

Really.

[Boogahz]

Well, that's what meat fucking does after it's eaten by a human. Humans can't digest meat; our stomach acids aren't designed to break it down like a carnivore's, so it rots in the colon until it's able to be shat out the asshole. It actually begins rotting in the intestines.

Really?

Really.

You do realize that not all digestion occurs in the stomach, right? Did they not teach you that in your indoctrination 101 class?

[Spang]

You do realize that not all digestion occurs in the stomach, right?

Correct. The digestive process begins in the mouth. Our saliva is necessary to digest grains which is why we have large salivary glands, like herbivores.

[Aabidano]

Correct. The digestive process begins in the mouth. Our saliva is necessary to digest grains which is why we have large salivary glands, like herbivores.

You're sort of correct. The first sentence anyway, the second one sort of.

And our gastro-intestinal tract is short, like most omnivores since we don't need the extra length & extensive proccessing with the mixed diet our bodies have evolved for.

While not as strong as a buzzard or crocidilians the strong acid in our stomach as contrasted to a cows' is a leftover from the need to kill pathogens & process what today would be considered highly contaminated foods.

The long gut in herbivores is to draw the maximum nutrients from the poor fodder they consume. The rely much more on enzymic action & long processing times.

[Aslanna]

That looks like science and facts and icky stuff like that. Those have no place in this conversation!

[Aabidano]

While not as strong as a buzzard or crocidilians the strong acid in our stomach as contrasted to a cows' is a leftover from the need to kill pathogens & process what today would be considered highly contaminated foods.

In fact our system is very well suited to consume carrion, which isn't too unusual for a highly intelligent, opportunistic feeder without refrigeration

You and I wouldn't do well, it'd take a generation or three to get back into it without repurcussions. There are folks who cook & consume food well past it's due date on purpose with no ill effects, the decomposition proccess actually makes more of some nutrients available.

[Aabidano]

And just because I was listening to it:

What i scream about, can't get the stink out. catch it on my tongue, save it in my lung. fucking vegans smoking, keep us all choking. big round of applause for california laws. act like human beings instead of europeans. i was a singer/dancer, now i got lung cancer (ahhhhhh). can't get the stink out. can't get the stink out. can't get the stink out. can't get the stink out.

[Spang]

That looks like science and facts and icky stuff like that. Those have no place in this conversation!

I've been dropping factual knowledge on this thread since the first post.

[Aslanna]

That looks like science and facts and icky stuff like that. Those have no place in this conversation!

I've been dropping factual knowledge on this thread since the first post.

yeah. You've been dropping something all over this thread... And it's not facts:

The food chain was invented by humans to justify exploitation of animals.

[Spang]

That looks like science and facts and icky stuff like that. Those have no place in this conversation!

I've been dropping factual knowledge on this thread since the first post.

yeah. You've been dropping something all over this thread... And it's not facts:

The food chain was invented by humans to justify exploitation of animals.

No, that's factual. Look, there was a time in society when a small minority of people believed the earth to be round. The majority said, no, you people are fucking crazy. Today, the flat-earthers are the crazy ones.

[Aslanna]

The food chain was invented by humans to justify exploitation of animals.

No, that's factual. Look, there was a time in society when a small minority of people believed the earth to be round. The majority said, no, you people are fucking crazy. Today, the flat-earthers are the crazy ones.

Humans invented the 'food chain' in the same way we invented 'gravity'. Just because we gave something a name doesn't mean we invented it.

Good day, Sir!

[Aabidano]

I don't think the rest of us see that "food chain" sentence in the same way you are

The rest of us are talking about the process of little critters eating larger ones until you get to the predators at the top. That process has been around much longer than people have had the ability to think of the concept. It's simply the way our species has evolved.

That we have a choice not to eat meat at this point is an entirely seperate conversation from your arguments.

Unless of course you think protozoan Bush and Cheney were plotting their ancestors' eventual species domination while in the primordial goo. "Lessee, what we'll do here Dick...."

The gyrations you make to self-justify your position are kind of silly, and make you look like a loon to anyone who hasn't drank the koolade. Much like listening to a creationist.

[Spang]

The food chain was invented by humans to justify exploitation of animals.

No, that's factual. Look, there was a time in society when a small minority of people believed the earth to be round. The majority said, no, you people are fucking crazy. Today, the flat-earthers are the crazy ones.

Humans invented the 'food chain' in the same way we invented 'gravity'. Just because we gave something a name doesn't mean we invented it.

No, I'm saying that I'm the round-earther of the past, since I believe that the food chain was invented by humans to justify exploitation of animals. While you people are the flat-earthers of the past, since you all think I'm crazy for believing in such hogwash.

[Boogahz]

You just hate the Earth. Reduce global warming by consuming those evil methane plants called cows.

Humans totally invented photosynthesis too. Go into denial about that and you won't have anything left to eat.

[Spang]

The rest of us are talking about the process of little critters eating larger ones until you get to the predators at the top. That process has been around much longer than people have had the ability to think of the concept.

Right. And now, there's a small minority of people (vegans/vegetarians) who realize that it's wrong and unnecessary for humans to slaughter and torture animals (i.e. exploit) for our <insert your favorite word here>. Which brings me to my point: humans justify the exploitation of animals with the food chain. Yes, the act of animals eating other animals and whatnot has been around since the beginning, but it didn't have a name back then. Humans gave it a name--the food chain--defined it and put themselves at the top.

[Boogahz]

The rest of us are talking about the process of little critters eating larger ones until you get to the predators at the top. That process has been around much longer than people have had the ability to think of the concept.

Right. And now, there's a small minority of people (vegans/vegetarians) who realize that it's wrong and unnecessary for humans to slaughter and torture animals (i.e. exploit) for our <insert your favorite word here>. Which brings me to my point: humans justify the exploitation of animals with the food chain. Yes, the act of animals eating other animals and whatnot has been around since the beginning, but it didn't have a name back then. Humans gave it a name--the food chain--defined it and put themselves at the top.

There were offshoots of our species that tried this before, and they're all extinct. If you are that suicidal, you should really get some professional help.

[Spang]

You just hate the Earth. Reduce global warming by consuming those evil methane plants called cows.

Actually, a diet consisting of meat is significantly worse for the planet than a plant-based diet.

[Boogahz]

You just hate the Earth. Reduce global warming by consuming those evil methane plants called cows.

Actually, a diet consisting of meat is significantly worse for the planet than a plant-based diet.

bullshit

[Spang]

You just hate the Earth. Reduce global warming by consuming those evil methane plants called cows.

Actually, a diet consisting of meat is significantly worse for the planet than a plant-based diet.

bullshit

Study: vegan diets healthier for planet, people than meat diets

The food that people eat is just as important as what kind of cars they drive when it comes to creating the greenhouse-gas emissions that many scientists have linked to global warming, according to a report accepted for publication in the April issue of the journal Earth Interactions.

Both the burning of fossil fuels during food production and non-carbon dioxide emissions associated with livestock and animal waste contribute to the problem, the University of Chicago’s Gidon Eshel and Pamela Martin wrote in the report.

The average American diet requires the production of an extra ton and a half of carbon dioxide-equivalent, in the form of actual carbon dioxide as well as methane and other greenhouse gases compared to a strictly vegetarian diet, according to Eshel and Martin. And with Earth Day approaching on April 22, cutting down on just a few eggs or hamburgers each week is an easy way to reduce greenhouse-gas emissions, they said.

“We neither make a value judgment nor do we make a categorical statement,” said Eshel, an Assistant Professor in Geophysical Sciences. “We say that however close you can be to a vegan diet and further from the mean American diet, the better you are for the planet. It doesn’t have to be all the way to the extreme end of vegan. If you simply cut down from two burgers a week to one, you’ve already made a substantial difference.”

The average American drives 8,322 miles by car annually, emitting 1.9 to 4.7 tons of carbon dioxide, depending on the vehicle model and fuel efficiency. Meanwhile, Americans also consume an average of 3,774 calories of food each day.

In 2002, energy used for food production accounted for 17 percent of all fossil fuel use in the United States. And the burning of these fossil fuels emitted three-quarters of a ton of carbon dioxide per person.

That alone amounts to approximately one-third the average greenhouse-gas emissions of personal transportation. But livestock production and associated animal waste also emit greenhouse gases not associated with fossil-fuel combustion, primarily methane and nitrous oxide.

“An example would be manure lagoons that are associated with large-scale pork production,” Eshel said. “Those emit a lot of nitrous oxide into the atmosphere.”

While methane and nitrous oxide are relatively rare compared with carbon dioxide, they are — molecule for molecule — far more powerful greenhouse gases than carbon dioxide. A single pound of methane, for example, has the same greenhouse effect as approximately 50 pounds of carbon dioxide.

In their study, Eshel and Martin compared the energy consumption and greenhouse-gas emissions that underlie five diets: average American, red meat, fish, poultry and vegetarian (including eggs and dairy), all equaling 3,774 calories per day.

The vegetarian diet turned out to be the most energy-efficient, followed by poultry and the average American diet. Fish and red meat virtually tied as the least efficient.

The impact of producing fish came as the study’s biggest surprise to Martin, an Assistant Professor in Geophysical Sciences. “Fish can be from one extreme to the other,” Martin said. Sardines and anchovies flourish near coastal areas and can be harvested with minimal energy expenditure. But swordfish and other large predatory species required energy-intensive long-distance voyages.

Martin and Eshel’s research indicated that plant-based diets are healthier for people as well as for the planet.

“The adverse effects of dietary animal fat intake on cardiovascular diseases is by now well established. Similar effects are also seen when meat, rather than fat, intake is considered,” Martin and Eshel wrote. “To our knowledge, there is currently no credible evidence that plant-based diets actually undermine health; the balance of available evidence suggests that plant-based diets are at the very least just as safe as mixed ones, and most likely safer.”

In their next phase of research, Eshel and Martin will examine the energy expenditures associated with small organic farms, to see if they offer a healthier planetary alternative to large agribusiness companies. Such farms typically provide the vegetables sufficient to support 200 to 300 families on plots of five to 10 acres.

“We’re starting to investigate whether you can downscale food production and be efficient that way,” Martin said.

The Source

[masteen]

That's more an indictment of factory farming and monoculture than meat consumption. I agree, agribusiness is truly wrecking our best land. But even not eating meat, you're still eating the products of unsustainable agriculture. I'd wager that a carnivore who sourced his meat primarily from hunting and/or from Amish farmers has done more for the planet than you ever will.

Fuck I wish there were Amish down here. Those folks churn some tasty butter.

[Aslanna]

No, I'm saying that I'm the round-earther of the past, since I believe that the food chain was invented by humans to justify exploitation of animals. While you people are the flat-earthers of the past, since you all think I'm crazy for believing in such hogwash.

I said GOOD DAY!


Honestly at this point I think you're just trolling. Nevertheless it's still entertaining.

[Boogahz]

Save the bacon!


Such animal cruelty.

[Leonaerd]

The teaming up against Spang is crazy. Am I the only one who eats meat but realizes that most nutrition is gained outside of meat?

Meat is not as easily digested as ________.

A meat-heavy diet consumes far more worldly resources than a diet consisting of _______.

Nutrition gained from cooked meat pales in comparison to _______.



A while ago, I came to the conclusion that meat should fill a difficult-to-avoid hole in my diet, not take over my diet's primary position, night after night.

I feel great after eating a salad, or an apple, or drinking a spirulina shake. I feel full and unhealthy after eating a burger. The kind of full that leaves me wanting nutrition beyond what red meat can offer.

Many of you are probably malnourished and barely know the kind of physical satisfaction / well-being that you're missing out on, by being meat fanatics. Yes, fanatics.

[Show]

Eat some lentils at lunch for a change, instead of Jimmy Johns. See how that feels.

[Leonaerd]

I understand that Spang's position is relatively radical. But in order to get people to understand that meat is relatively dangerous and unhealthy, when compared to the many options out there, sometimes radical has to be the eye-opener for a lot of people. High blood pressure happens for a reason.

[Aslanna]

The teaming up against Spang is crazy. Am I the only one who eats meat but realizes that most nutrition is gained outside of meat?

Meat is not as easily digested as ________.

A meat-heavy diet consumes far more worldly resources than a diet consisting of _______.

Nutrition gained from cooked meat pales in comparison to _______.

A while ago, I came to the conclusion that meat should fill a difficult-to-avoid hole in my diet, not take over my diet's primary position, night after night.

I feel great after eating a salad, or an apple, or drinking a spirulina shake. I feel full and unhealthy after eating a burger. The kind of full that leaves me wanting nutrition beyond what red meat can offer.

Uh.. I don't think anyone here has stated (or even believes) that most nutrition comes from meat. A lot of people that still post here actually seem to cook a lot. Do you really think they grill a one pound steak every night and that's the only thing they eat? Get a grip! There is also meat out there other than red meat. Shocking, I know!

Many of you are probably malnourished and barely know the kind of physical satisfaction / well-being that you're missing out on, by being meat fanatics. Yes, fanatics.

I'm probably just as near, or close to, vegetarian as Spang and for much longer. I don't eat any red meat or pork (although bacon made its way back about a year ago but that's too tasty to hate for long) and haven't for about 16 years now. I have chicken and fish at most two times a week. And honesty I feel better than I have in awhile since I gave up processed food and high fructose corn syrup and went 'Mediterranean Diet'. The difference is I'm not preaching to others and telling them they're all a bunch of sinners who have a one-way trip to Hell aleady booked.

If you reread the majority of posts here in this thread you'll find that most people do not have a problem with vegetarians. Just preachy douchebaggy ones who tell everyone who eats meat they are a bunch or murderous gluttons who should be ashamed of themselves. Basically the equivalent of religious fanatics but for the food world. Sorry but the guilt shit isn't working on me and I doubt on anyone else. It just entrenches meat-eaters position even more. Educate people with actual facts and let them decide on their own what they want to do. If they don't agree with you accept it and move on because that's about all you can do. Pretty much the same with every other polarizing topic out there such as religion, politics, abortion, etc.

Eat some lentils at lunch for a change, instead of Jimmy Johns. See how that feels.

Oh and when I went to Jimmy Jons (been at least a year) I get the #13. Which is a veggie sandwich! Although it has cheese so not vegan. Not the healthiest item on the menu but damn it's tasty. A sandwich with no meat... Did I just blow your mind?

[Leonaerd]

It's difficult to get my point across, as I intend for it to be received, within the boundaries of a text-based format.

In real life, I don't make such bold statements without first grasping my counterpart's stance. As this is a text-based environment and it seemed to me that people are missing the more useful points of Spang's stance, I made an effort to say something; anything. I knew ahead of time that it would be easy to nitpick at what I said, regardless of how I voiced it.

VV could (should?) get some Skype going... or at least something voice-based. A 6 o'clock meeting place where we gather in a faceless, voice-driven chat room where we can actually move people. Crazy, I know, but I actually value damn near everybody's input on this stupid little website, and increasingly our opinions clash without actual gain. It's just sad to see such potential wasted, when it's obvious we all want mutual understanding.

When it comes to something like nutrition and meat, I have far more to say that I'm willing to lay out in text. It's a shame, considering all that this community has to offer...

/rant