Online Poker

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Leonaerd
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Online Poker

Post by Leonaerd »

In the past few months, I've been playing online poker in my spare time on Pokerstars. I've charged $25 a few times, done the $3.25 tournaments with 45, 90 or 180 people mostly, and had fun winning and losing. Gambling is fun.

During my most recent $25 input, I lost two $3.25 tournaments simultaneously. Pissed, I used most of my remaining funds for a $12, 45 man tournament. I got second place and won $110.

Cool, I thought. So I played the same tournament and won it this time, getting $154. Whoa, that's a lot of money from just $25.

With my newly acquired funds, I strolled over to the $1 / $2 no limit tables. Sitting down as the 6th person at the 6 person table, I bought in to the maximum $200 buy in with $100 to test my luck and skills. Before long I was up to $200. At this point I'm positively giddy that I've won so much in so short an amount of time (no more than an afternoon of casual play). Well, I stay at the table for a while and within a couple hours I've steamrolled my stack to $800 or so, which for me is some of the most money I've ever seen in my possession. With a $200 maximum buy in at the table, I'd be able to hustle fools all day with a stack as large as mine.

Until I went linkdead, missed three rounds of big blinds and lost my enormous leverage (I would have had to rejoin at $200).

It's probably good that I went linkdead, while I was ahead.

My question / topic of discussion for all of you... have any of you ever tried some serious money making strategies for playing poker? I'm a smart player, but this was my first taste of some real money and I'm eager to see what I can do. I wouldn't be too bummed if I lost it all, but with this much money on my account I'm really hoping to up the ante.
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Xyun »

I've been playing poker my whole life, and my profession is a poker dealer (side note: I just got hired at a poker room in Tampa WOOT!). There was at least one year where I kept track of all my winnings/losings and I lost that year. Last year I won a ton of money, including several times I won $1k in live tournaments and I won $3k online. I used to play on 3 or 4 sites including pokerstars (screen name: Mumm_Ra) but starting last year I only played on Full Tilt (screen name: Baba Looey). Here are my online stats from 2008 -

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ROI=Return on Investment ABI=Average Buy In AFS=Average Field Size R/A=Rebuy/Addon ITM=In the Money

It should be noted that I'm down a couple hundred for 2009 when I played for a week just after New Year. But once I lost a good portion of my savings in the stock market I quit playing online poker since I didn't have a job. These stats are mainly for tournament poker and I rarely play for cash. You should know that Absolute Poker (who also owns Ultimate Bet) has been caught cheating people out of over $20 million online. They did this with high stakes games so I tend to stick to very low stakes online. The stats above can be gotten for any player at http://www.officialpokerrankings.com. There's also http://www.sharkscope.com which tracks winnings/losings online. I don't think either site tracks cash games though, only tournaments.

Ok, I do have some advice but I doubt you will follow this advice since most people like to learn for themselves the hard way. The biggest mistake people make online is that when they win they move to higher stakes, which almost always results in losing the entire bank roll. The stakes you start at is probably the stakes you can afford and therefore you should STAY at those stakes and CASH OUT when you hit big. Don't leave money in the account. Remember, even if you play perfect poker you will only win 65-75% of the time. That's if you play perfect! By playing bigger money games you are putting more of your winnings at risk on 1 hand. I've seen and dealt hands that you would think impossible.

Just a few months ago I dealt this hand at the poker room I worked at:

Player 1 - 7.7 Player 2 - 7.5 ... Flop 3.5.7 Turn 5 River 5

Needless to say they were both all in on the turn and the pot was well over $1000. Basically I'm pointing out that your entire stack can be lost on a 95% sure bet that gets sucked out on. It's happened to me. I once lost a $2k pot with KK vs. K8 and the flop was K.9.7. Can you guess the turn and river? That was the worst hand of my life.

So my advice is cash out your winnings and buy yourself something nice. I bought a motorcycle with my winnings last year. DO NOT move to higher stakes just because you won so much at lower stakes. Good luck.

EDIT - Sorry I had to fix the hand I dealt, I had a couple things wrong with it.
Last edited by Xyun on March 8, 2009, 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Xyun »

Also, I want to add something about the above stats. Most of the games I play are heads up (2 player) matches. That's why I have such a high ITM percentage. Heads Up matches are my bread and butter. I build up my stack with heads up then I parlay my winnings in multi-table tourneys. I actually play the 4 man heads up, which is a 1v1 tournament, winner takes all, with lower rake. $10 buy in per player and winner gets $40. You just have to win both matches. My stats are somewhat skewed because of the amount of heads up I play.
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Aslanna »

Gambling is a sin. Prepare to roast in the fires of hell for all eternity.
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Fash »

I'm having a lot of fun right now on Pokerstars... I'm really not trying to make a lot of money, just playing small buy-in tournaments when I have time to kill. You really have to be careful with no-limit... That $800 could have been gone in just a few hands. I don't have the discipline to play no-limit cash games, but I've been placing pretty high in 45-180 man NL tournaments.
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Drasta »

i'd rather play real blackjack .. than online blackjack ... esp since i can leave my bank card at home so i can only use the cash that i have on-hand and nothing else ..
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Truant »

Which has nothing to do with poker.
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Leonaerd »

I took Xyun's advice and cashed out $500. That's heating and groceries for a few days!!

Sometimes I really wonder about the integrity of Pokerstars. The amount of times I've seen pocket kings vs pocket aces is staggering.
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Leonaerd »

Dang. I just won a $12 tournament with 180 people for $594. Fuck having a real job.
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Xyun »

haha grats! When you're hot, you're hot! I've had some great streaks like that. I know of one guy who was able to play poker for a living. He just had a couple of phenomenal years, and was sponsored by Full Tilt Poker. His name is Jordan Morgan, and he would come to my home game in Norman, OK in college. He was one of the top online players in the country. In 2006 he banked about $300,000 online, and people started paying his entries into live tournaments and such. However, I haven't heard from him much in the last year or so. His online name is Imsolucky.

I tried playing poker for a living in 2006 as well. I didn't do poorly, but some months I'd be up a couple of grand and some months I wouldn't be able to pay my car payment or rent. It was too volatile and I didn't have a big enough bankroll to overcome the fluctuations and volatility. I quit trying after my car got repo'd.

Keep at it, but also keep cashing out chunks. You can always put it back in if you go bust, but it is a good habit since it keeps you from gambling a lot of it at once. Good luck.
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Zaelath »

Leonaerd wrote:I took Xyun's advice and cashed out $500. That's heating and groceries for a few days!!

Sometimes I really wonder about the integrity of Pokerstars. The amount of times I've seen pocket kings vs pocket aces is staggering.
And the number of times (most) that I've seen pocket Aces lose to 3,7 off-suit ....
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Canelek »

Hmm, sounds intriguing. This may be fun to do now and again (although I am sure it is quite addictive, like any sort of gambling).

I know a guy that plays professionally (live, not online). He is currently travelling the world as a ski bum. Not a bad way to go if you are damn good.

That said, like anything, enjoy the streak, but be prudent with your winnings....streaks end.
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Soreali »

So I literally just got hooked on Pokerstars yesterday(Dyerseve3160) thanks to my friend(that asshole). Dropped 25 in and played at the little tables (.02/.04) just for fun.. had a couple of fun hands..moved up to the .05/.10 tables.. had a couple fun hands..lost some..moved up to the .10/.20.. went up like 7 bucks then lost it all..

My question is since I was never really a Texas Hold Em guy, anyone have some good tips? My problem is knowing when to call and when to fold sadly.. And I'd really like to learn a little more and win a little bit before I try a tourney. So Xyun, Leo...Suggestions?

Thanks!
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Spang »

Soreali wrote:My question is since I was never really a Texas Hold Em guy, anyone have some good tips?
Watch the movie Rounders. Also, watch the World Series of Poker on the ESPN networks.
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Soreali »

lol ive watched the WSOP but never really pay that close attention.

And sadly this shit is addicting..which is why im stickin to the cheap tables lol
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Kaldaur »

Okay, like Xyun said, pick a stakes you feel comfortable at and then stay there. The problem always lies in winning a few dollars at a lower stake table, then moving up. Your money is not as valuable at a higher stakes table (if you're playing with a small stack) because it won't get you as far.
Soreali, if you are interested in learning about the ins and outs of poker, check out Doyle Brunson's "Super System" books. They are basically the old testament of poker. There are lots of new books out there, with many different topics. Some of my favorite player/authors are Daniel Negreanu and Phil Hellmuth. Note that Hellmuth is a dick who I can't stand to watch, but his books are solid reads that will teach you some of the rudimentary plays.
I paid for two years of college by playing poker. The key is to start small and stay small until you can play the people without worrying about your cards. Also, if you want to capitalize your winnings, you need to be able to read the players, and you can do that online just as easily in real life. When I say 'read' the player, I'm not talking looking for facial tics or shaky hands. I'm talking about analyzing their past hand patterns, trying to goad them into talking, etc. Let's say someone has folded ten or fifteen times on a nine person table. On the next hand, they raise. They are either: a 'rock' who only raises when they have gold in the pocket, or they are a tight aggressive player who is trying to trip you up. To know which one they are, you have to have been at the table awhile to follow their pattern. That's why I recommend playing long periods at the same table, so that you can monitor your opponents. The nice thing about online poker is that you can write notes about a player, and those notes will stick to the player's handle, so you can always refer back to those notes in the future. This is much handier than live poker, where your memory has to serve you well.

If you seriously want to start playing, and play well, start reading some books and learning about pot odds, psychology of poker, etc. When I crossed the threshold from casual player to someone who knew about the minute details in poker, my winnings went drastically up. There's a reason professionals continually make the big dollars; they have put in the time learning the ins and outs and can capitalize on that knowledge. Even little fish like us can use that knowledge to our advantage, albeit on a smaller scale.

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Last edited by Kaldaur on March 11, 2009, 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Leonaerd »

Soreali wrote:So I literally just got hooked on Pokerstars yesterday(Dyerseve3160) thanks to my friend(that asshole). Dropped 25 in and played at the little tables (.02/.04) just for fun.. had a couple of fun hands..moved up to the .05/.10 tables.. had a couple fun hands..lost some..moved up to the .10/.20.. went up like 7 bucks then lost it all..

My question is since I was never really a Texas Hold Em guy, anyone have some good tips? My problem is knowing when to call and when to fold sadly.. And I'd really like to learn a little more and win a little bit before I try a tourney. So Xyun, Leo...Suggestions?

Thanks!
I've never read any books on poker. By playing a lot, you will get an instinctive feel for how you should play a hand. First of all, I'd recommend starting in the $.10 tournaments with 360 people, as you'll lose money very slowly and you'll get valuable experience. Cash tables are really, really rough for a beginner and it hardly ever ends well. Even if you think pairing up the 9 on the board is good, that douchebag with a tall chip stack probably has pocket kings. Stay away from the cash tables until you're confident with your poker instincts.

Again: stay the fuck away from cash tables for now. Unless they're the .01 / .02 tables. Those are boring, though.

If I'm the dealer, and one or two people at the table call the big blind before it's my turn and I have A7, I'll likely raise considerably. Not too much, not too little. If, however, even one person raises a decent amount before I get the chance to play, I will fold my hand without hesitation. A7 is powerless to AJ. By the same token, if somebody has a small, weak raise before the flop, I might re-raise with my A7. A risky move like that depends on many things: my chip stack, his chip stack, how many people are in the hand, how big the blinds are, how many hands I've played in recently, how many hands my opponent has played in recently, and perhaps most importantly: whether or not my A7 is suited. There are many intangibles in poker that no amount of reading is going to teach you. You simply have to feel the game and play alllll the time.

Bluffing is paramount in importance. Get good at it. Some common times that I bluff are: right before the small and big blind get a chance to call (if nobody else has called / raised). If I'm the dealer or shortly behind the dealer at the table, any suited hand, any straight draw hand, or any Q - A high card hand is usually sufficient for me to raise a lot and steal the blinds. People will usually fold. If they don't, you know they have a good hand. Don't raise too much, though, or they might re-raise all-in on the assumption that you were just trying to steal the pot, regardless of what is in their hand. Also, as you get into the latter stages of a tournament, going all-in to get others to fold becomes a necessary evil. The blinds are big enough that it is worth the effort, and people are much more privy to hold onto the chips they have in order to make the money, that they're a lot more likely to fold even if they have a good hand. I might go all-in with JQ or even A2.

With high pocket pairs, limp in. Somebody will hit something on the board and bet, and if your pocket kings are higher than any of the cards on the board, re-raise (unless there's an obvious straight / flush / 3-of a kind draw). Low pocket pairs are a double edged sword. Near the end of a tournament they're very powerful. 22 will beat AK regularly. Go all in before the flop with those. During the early part of the tournament, however, I usually limp in with a low pocket pair and hope for a three of a kind. A mistake I made early on was assuming the dominance of the low pocket pair. It's worth limping in and seeing if you flop a three of a kind because then you can be sure that you're going to win a lot of money.

Never feel forced to call all-in. Never feel like your opponent isn't capable of bluffing. Never call J 6 unsuited.
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Xyun »

I somewhat disagree that it is just as easy to read people online as in person. Not to say that you can't see certain betting patterns online, but in real life you can pick up a lot more information from your opponents. But a lot of people put way too much stock in "tells". The most important thing in poker is having the winning hand, and realizing that 2nd place is the WORST hand because 2nd place loses the most money. Strength of hand trumps reading players, it trumps bluffing, it trumps out playing your opponent, and any other play. If you play solid poker and never bluff or make crazy plays you will be successful.

Discipline -
I think discipline is the most important thing in poker. Patience is virtue and it is something I continuously struggle with.

Bluffs -
Bluffs are a tool to be used against good players, never bluff a calling station or a fish. You can beat calling stations easily by just waiting for the best hand. In fact, you should rarely bluff, especially online, since so many people call with horrible hands.

Tournaments -
I play tourneys differently than I play cash (and I rarely play cash). I have a very specific strategy that I use. Early on in a tournament I play a lot of hands, especially in late position. I try to look at roughly 30-35% of flops.

When the big blind is 5% or less of my stack I use the following strategy -

Before the hand is dealt, I imagine the table as being split up into 3 zones: The red zone, the yellow zone, and the green zone. The red zone is the Under the Gun position and the next 2 positions, the next 3 positions are the yellow zone, and the rest of the positions including the cutoff, the button, the small blind and the big blind are green.

In the green zone I play as many hands as I possibly can. If the bet is not raised and is 5% or less of my stack, and I'm in the green zone, I will look at the flop with any 2 cards. The earlier my position, the stronger requirement I have for my hand to get into a pot. The red zone I require really strong hands, and I rarely raise preflop. I usually raise small in the red zone with monster hands like AA or KK hoping for a reraise behind me, but allowing for really horrible hands to get out. I always limp with AK or AQ in the red zone. The reason I play like this is to win as many hands early on as I can to get my stack big. A lot of people including pros have strongly advised against this strategy so do with it what you will.

Obviously, a lot of my strategy depends on the others at the table. The more aggressive the table, the higher my hand strength requirements to play. My post flop strategy is pretty complex as well and depends even more on the information I know about my opponents at my table. One important thing I keep in mind is never getting married to hands, even huge preflop hands. Oh, and I do my best to NEVER EVER call all-in preflop. If I'm forced to do so I will with JJ, QQ, KK, AA, and AK only. And AK I will only call all in preflop if it is heads up with just one opponent. If 2 guys are all in before me and I have AK i get rid of it. Now pushing all-in as the aggressor is a different story.

By the middle of a tournament, the blinds have gotten too big to be less than 5% of my stack, unless I've won a lot of hands. If my stack is big enough, I keep the same strategy, but once the big blind starts representing 5% or more of my stack, I tighten up.

The late stages of the tournament are tough if your stack is not big. You have to gamble a lot more, so you want to continuously accrue chips in the early and middle stages so you don't have to gamble later on. Plus, if you are big stacked, you can bully the small stacks and just keep gathering chips since they've been playing forever and don't want to get knocked out, and since their tournament life is at steak and yours is not. If you're small stacked you just have to pick a good spot and get it in there and hope for a coin flip win.


There are a lot of things involved in poker strategy and many books have been written about it. I'm just spouting off what's coming to mind at the moment. The most important things in poker in my mind are discipline, bankroll management, knowing when to quit, and keeping emotions at bay. The times I lose the most money seems to be the times I play the most emotionally. Nowadays, I always prepare myself mentally by accepting that I may lose everything I put on the table, and I manage my bankroll accordingly. I try to find the best spot to end that session, even if I haven't been playing that long, and whether I'm up or down. I gauge how well I'm playing, and if I feel like I'm not playing my best, I usually end the session.

Hmm. I hope this helps. I haven't been playing as much recently. I just finished my first shift at my new poker dealing job. Nowadays, I get worn out by the game pretty easily, since it has been a major part of my adult life.
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Soreali »

Thanks for the tips guys. I've been playing in the cheap-o tournaments. Usually the $5 NL Hold em' double or nothing. Figure I can survive to be in the top five and win. Been having some success with them so we'll see how it goes.
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Aevian Dreaklear »

If you get a chance, learn how to play Omaha. I started playing omaha years go and I love the game. I won't play hold em if an omaha game is available. While omaha games aren't as prevalent in casinos, playing online, you can find a game easy. There are a ton of bad omaha players. If you are able to calcuate your odds and pot odds, you can make quite a bit playing omaha. Especially hi/lo when people jam with just a low draw. Plus I think omaha is just more fun than hold em, hell you get 4 cards. How can it not be fun? Give it a look.
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Leonaerd »

FUCK OMAHA
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Soreali »

I saw Omaha and was curious about trying it but I didnt know anything about it? Leo, whats the downside to it since you obviously dont like it lol.
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Re: Online Poker

Post by valryte »

I only play live games, both cash (casinos and private games) and tournaments. I've played online, but it just doesn't do anything for me, besides the actual game, its the live interactions that I truly enjoy. I've been playing for some 7 years or so. While I generally win in cash games, I prefer tournaments. I go to AC about once a month and to Vegas like once or twice a year, but only been to an actual WSOP event once. I currently play 2/5 which are the stakes I currently allow my bankroll to play in. I'm pretty anal about managing the money which is one of the reasons I'm able to play 2 times a week. Some of my buddies just don't have a good grasp at managing their money correctly and are all over the place. Sometimes they can't play for weeks on end. So that would probably be one the tips I could give you. Learn to manage your money correctly. Play the stakes that your bankroll allows you. It doesn't matter how long you have been playing, if you don't have the bankroll for the higher stakes you're just throwing money away cause no matter how good you are there will be days/weeks that you will be down. As for the books, there are some really good ones out there. They'll basically help you understand the fundamentals of the game, odds (actual/implied), positions, etc... But the fact of the matter is that they will somewhat get you pointed in the right direction. Everything else you'll eventually learn on your own as you start incorporating what you read, your experiences, talking with other players, forums, etc into what will eventually be your own style of play.

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Re: Online Poker

Post by Truant »

Soreali wrote:I saw Omaha and was curious about trying it but I didnt know anything about it? Leo, whats the downside to it since you obviously dont like it lol.
It's harder to play.
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Aevian Dreaklear »

Here is my take on omaha and why I personally like it. I'm would consider myself an average poker player, maybe above average compared to the idiots I see at the casino, so I wouldn't take this as gospel, just another man's opinion.

I'm a pretty tight player and don't care to mix it up with medium strength hands for all forms of poker. In hold 'em, I need to be more aggressive with those hands because more than likely it's a winner. If I flop top pair in hold 'em, I will still take advantage of the hand, but anyone who calls me down to the river and then reraises me has a decent chance of scaring me off top pair with a good kicker.

Because I prefer to play only premium hands, omaha suits my play style more. In omaha, they say you always have to draw to the nuts. Bottom end of straights, middle and bottom pair, 10 high flush draws, are mostly BS hands. They add equity to your hand, but shouldn't be the best part of your hand. While it seems to be a simplistic concept, I've seen tons of poker players overlook that, especially in hi/lo.

I'm a very analytical poker player and prefer calculating my odds of hitting the nuts vs pot odds. I'm getting better about reading other people, but it's a work in progress. When I flop a wrap with the nut flush draw, I figure I've got 17ish outs twice. I'm going to jam the hell out of the pot. Sometimes I can take that pot right out there, but more often than not, I'll get a call or two from weaker hands. Maybe it's someone with a worse wrap, or someone with a worse flush draw, or maybe someone with a set. Either way, I like my chances.

I used to play a home game with some college friends, quarter antes. Whenever I played hold 'em, I'd have ups and downs. Playing omaha, I'd leave with an extra 120-200 in my pocket. That's with 25 cent antes. I'd just play and get a couple of huge pots an hour.

YMMV, but I see more glaring mistakes made in omaha than hold 'em which does wonder for my bankroll. If you like to play lots of hands post flop, you may be better off with hold 'em. But if you can be patient, omaha is definitely worth a look. Or hi/lo. In our home game, we sometimes play 83 which is hi/lo but with 5 cards in your hand with trips or better to qualify for the high. That game is insane with the right people.
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Leonaerd
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Leonaerd »

So, yesterday I decided to go in at the local charity cash tables at a nearby bar. I don't usually play in person so I was nervous. Little did I know that the average Lansing resident is an idiot.

Within 3 hours I was up from the 100 max buy in at the 1 / 2 tables to an astounding $700. People bluff $200 pots. Seriously! I'm going back today. And perhaps many other days.
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Soreali »

Lol nice Leo.

So I've been playing in mostly $1 and $5 tournaments of NL Hold Em double or nothing. Been doing pretty well. I'm starting to get a better grasp of what to call with and what to fold. Some people playing are just f'ing retarded with what they call with. Most of the time I'll sit back and let them beat the crap out of each other until I get a decent hand to get some chips with.. Once I'm in a comfortable position, I pretty much fold every hand but the blinds.. Been working so far..

Anyone have a decent website to read up on? I'm not much of a book reader :?
Timmah.


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valryte
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Re: Online Poker

Post by valryte »

try http://www.twoplustwo.com/

Probably the biggest, if not the biggest poker website out there. Check out the forum.
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Sylvus »

I don't normally do this, but...
Leonaerd wrote:Little did I know that the average Lansing resident is an idiot.
QFT!


:p
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Leonaerd
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Leonaerd »

Hey Sylvus my girl works in Ann Arbor at the hospital. Dietician. Possible connection?
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Sylvus »

I don't think so. I know a few nurses from U of M, but can't think of any dieticians.
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Soreali »

So my friend whos been showin me some tips and helped me win my first little tourney (22.50!). After, I told him to play one and I'd just watch him and see what I can learn from him/reading other people.. so he picks a $11 2000 person tourny 80k guaranteed. First prize 13k... After 7 1/2 hours he won the fucking thing..13k... he finished about 20 minutes ago.. i kinda feel like i made him 13k myself... bastard.
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Re: Online Poker

Post by Leonaerd »

nice
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