Looks like they caught the Sniper

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Looks like they caught the Sniper

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Post by Lor »

Lets hope this is the fuck and he gets whats comming to him.
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Post by Cartalas »

Send him Postage Due to Allah
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Post by Kylere »

If this guy is the shooter, I am shocked he is not some dumbass white guy.

How long you think he will be in prison before someone makes him their bitch?
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Post by Voronwë »

Kylere wrote:If this guy is the shooter, I am shocked he is not some dumbass white guy.
one thing i was thinking about this morning in the cafeteria downstairs was how this guy (IF it is this guy and his stepson) is kind of a combination of several theories.

1. military training for one person, not for the other
2. 2 people, not single
3. not a "card carrying" terrorist, but potentially a sympathizer
4. potential links to "militia type" training camps

anyway, i'm sure we'll learn a lot more in the next couple of days, and some of what we have heard now will most likely be discredited etc.

Hope this is the guy. I can't imagine how unnerving it must be to live up in the DC area right now.

edit: Credit Card rumor false.
Last edited by Voronwë on October 24, 2002, 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

I hope to hear from many bleeding heart pussies how this guy should not be put to death and the taxpayers should pay for his rehabilitation. Who wants to go first?
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Post by Voronwë »

no coffee yet kilmoll?

or you worried they'll close down your milita camp where you shoot at maniquins in school buses over this?
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Post by Deward »

These fuckers deserve to die. I was pretty sure there were two different people involved. My guess is the kid was the get-away driver.

Unfortunately since this is now a federal case, these asses will probably never get the electric chair they deserve. The federal Court system is notorious for handing out death sentences and then letting the people live for 30 years on death row while they argue a lot. The only way they were able to put OK city bomber to death was because he waived all rights to further appeals.

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Post by Voronwë »

well the kid probably won't get juiced. but if these are the people invovled in the crime, then the dad is most likely going to get zapped.

the kid is also perhaps involved in a murder in Alabama, and maybe the dad too. So they may end up getting a sentence in those crimes seperately, which is probably a capital murder case in and of itself.
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Post by Minfetter »

My insight on this and other cases where death penalty is considered. Why kill him? Why rehabilitate him? The person doesn't DESERVE a quick death. He doesn't DESERVE rehabilitation. The only thing this guy deserves is to be put in a REAL prison where he has a book and that's IT. He has 1-2 times a day where he gets to go to the bathroom. If that's not enough then tough luck. Then he can live in his own dumps and hate it. Food once a day, and not real food but dry bread and water occationally. Nothing else. Thus ends his days when he finally dies from aging.

This is something that may sound harsh to most of you guys, but does a person that's THIS sick deserve better? If you run around shooting people just because you want some money, then you shouldn't even be considered sane, nor should there be ANY doubt that you never will again. Money isn't everything, and certainly not what he's put people through to try to get his.
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Post by Dreadnaught »

i vote they put them both to detah by vivisection(SP?)! :twisted:
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Post by Sylvus »

Nah, that's too similar to just putting them in prison for life. Just kill them, they're obviously well enough in control of their actions that insanity shouldn't play into it. I'd say that fitting justice would be to just strap them in a chair facing the other way and and don't tell them when they're about to get sniped. Do it at some random time. Then maybe they'll feel the pain of their victims and the fear that the people living around the area of the shootings felt.
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Post by Voronwë »

brutal execution, while emotionally satisfying in certain regards, in the end doesnt accomplish anything. for starters it may even play into these people's fantasies. It glorifies their deaths to sympathizers. And it is something that is frankly beneath us as a civilized state.

I think execution of criminals, if it is to be performed, should be conducted clinically and efficiently. Lethal Injection is the best means. No fuss no muss.
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Post by Lor »

With these people the more brutal the execution the better, it Might make the next scumbag who thinks about trying a stunt like this say "hmmm, I really don't want to get flayed or boiled slowly to death, this may not be such a good idea". of course theres always the ones that are sick and wont care about any punishment.
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Post by Animale »

And that's the question... what purpose does the death penalty serve?
Is it to "punish" the offendor? Then, the argument is on what is the best method for "punishment"? Is life imprisonment a worse thing than a quick death? I for one think so.
Is it to prevent others from doing the same thing? In these type of crimes, they are either too insane to know different, don't give a damn, or actually want to die.
Is it to avoid paying to upkeep a known danger to society? Well, I sure don't want to say we killed somebody (guilty or not) because it was too expensive. (and due to all the legal wrangling, putting somebody to death is somewhat comparable in cost to life imprisonment).

As you can probably tell, I'm anti-death penalty for two primary reasons. One, I don't believe that it meets the purpose is was set out to serve. Secondarily, i think it meets the "cruel and unusual" punishment, particularly when applied by our flawed criminal justice system which routinely convicts innocent people.

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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

This is exactly why our jutice system needs an overhaul. There should be convictions based on the hardest evidence and absolutely no controversies or shred of doubt. They should fry these fuckers immediately with no appeals. See Ted Harvey and the bastard taht was eating his victims...can't remember his name (Jeff something). On crimes where there could be even the faintest glimmer that something could be wrong then they are jailed.

With DNA evidence starting to be very viable, shit is going to be much more cut and dried than in the past. If they commit a violent act, then they should be removed from society. If they take lives maliciously, then they should be eliminated from ever having that oppurtunity again. That would mean they are dead. I am not talking about accidental killings....you know what I am talking about. We are too soft on these people because we believe in some fucked up way that the criminals should have MORE rights than their victims.
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Post by Lor »

Kilmoll is 100% correct, besides I highly doubt execution costs the same as life in prison, and Yes I am a firm believer in the Death penalty, why take the chance that a murderer will somehow get out of prison to do it again? why should a murderer get to sleep in a dry bed and get 3 meals a day for the rest of his life when the victim's familys have to suffer with the loss of a loved one/friend knowing this fuckwad is still alive, working out, watching tv and learning a trade? An eye for an Eye punnishment is the way it really should be, you murder someone violently, you die violently.
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Post by Xyphir »

Let's propose this scenario: One of the people he shot was your wife/husband or mother/father or son/daughter. Does he deserve to live now?
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Post by Fairweather Pure »

With these people the more brutal the execution the better, it Might make the next scumbag who thinks about trying a stunt like this say "hmmm, I really don't want to get flayed or boiled slowly to death, this may not be such a good idea". of course theres always the ones that are sick and wont care about any punishment.
This is flawed logic, and definately one of the pro-death penelty's weaker arguments. There are generally 3 types of murders that make up the majority of killings.

1. Murders done without thought. This is "heat of the momment" and "fight or flight" types of killings. These murders are done without a momments notice or hesitation, almost a whime. This could be a jealous lover walking in on his wife getting fucked by someone else, or a store robbery gone wrong where people start shooting.

Problem vs. your above argument: These people are not thinking of the death penelty when they commit these acts. You could torture and kill someone on public television and it still would not prevent any murders of this type. The death penelty is the furthest thing from thier minds. They are caught up in the momment.

2. Premeditaed murder. This is when someone plans and follows through, the killing of another human being. This could be serial killers or our sniper here.

Problem vs. your above argument: These people murder under the assumption that they will not be getting caught in the first place, hence, the threat of the death penelty isn't really a threat to them at all.

3. Fucking Crazy. These are the people who kill thier kids, then off themselves or the disgruntled employee who stalks the cubicles shooting his former workmates in the face.

Problem vs. your above argument: These people don't intend on being taken alive, hence, the death penelty is a rather moot point.


The death penelty is vengence, plain and simple. I do not agree with it at all, since it is extremely arbitrary and in the last 25 years, 102 innocent people have been released from death row. Also, simply put, rich people do not get the chair. Legal representation is 99.99% of the battle and the vast majority of people on death row simply cannot afford representation.

Here's an interesting link that breaks down the information: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innoc.html

Here's a good "pro" death penelty site as well: http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/Innocence.htm

Draw your own conclusions, but I will always argue against the death penelty. It just isn't the right solution IMO.
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Post by Cotto »

Could Happen;

Rehab = Holiday in Bahamas being attended to open minded (we're talking field open here) young women.

Death = People who were shot by people now on Rehab.

Justice = $4,000 for holiday at taxpayers expense.

Damanation for the entire planet to hell due to justice systems being fucked up = burning, oh so much burning
It could be that the only purpose for your every existence, is to serve as a warning to others.
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Post by Fairweather Pure »

Let's propose this scenario: One of the people he shot was your wife/husband or mother/father or son/daughter. Does he deserve to live now?
If I walk in or find the man on the street, I would kill him. If he pulled a gun on the police as they were arresting him, he should be shot. If he is restrained and placed in the confines of a prison, he should not be pulled out years later and murdered by the state. That is my stance on the death penelty.
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

I agree with you Fairweather. There should be no appeals process on open-shut cases. DNA evidence is clearing people wrongfully convicted. DNA evidence is also damning guilty people now. With DNA evidence and concrete cases, there should be no appeal and they should be taken out back of the courthouse and shot in the head immediately after the trial. Alternatively, they can turn the person over to the family of the victim and let them deal with him....with no repurcussions to the family.
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Post by Fairweather Pure »

Anyone that could go behind a couthouse and kill an unarmed, bound human being, face to face, without blinking an eye needs thier head examined. They are most likely still in deep emotional termoil, or they have no capacity for feelings or human emotions. Either way, I still do not condone the killing of unarmed and bound human being. Especially if it is approved by our legal system, which is completely FUBAR. Furthermore, how many people would actually take you up on that offer and kill the murderer in that fashion? Many probably would if it was a week after the killings. However, if you waited 10-12 years then brought that killer before them, the victum's family would most definately be hard pressed to perform the killing themselves. Time heals wounds and allows the rage/vengence to subside and cooler heads to prevail. The way some people talk on this thread, you would think prision was a paradise or something.
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Post by Lor »

I don't think anyone thinks prison is a paradise Fair, far far from it, but seriously, why should a murderer have the right to live when he stole that right from someone else or in the case of the sniper 10 other people, what if this guy eventually get's "rehabilitated" and gets another bug up his ass and starts all over again? one thing you can say is we will never have to worry about Timothy McVey again right?.

BTW, in case anyone didn't hear They found a .223 rifle in the suspected sniper's car.
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Post by Fairweather Pure »

one thing you can say is we will never have to worry about Timothy McVey again right?.
Were you really worried about Timothy McVey breaking out of prison and blowing up a couple of more buildings? The idea is ludicrus...

Obvious murderes that are premeditated and done with full intent get life in prison with no chance of parole anyway. Killing is the final step and it cannot be taken back.

I appreciate a good, passionate argument and could easily argue pro-death in a debate, but deep down, I know it's just...wrong.
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

I would bet you that if you put an ad in the USA today, you would get millions of responses from people more than willing to walk up to a piece of shit murdering coward like this guy and put a 200 grain piece of lead through his face. Fuck....I would even pay for the shell rather than know my tax dollars are going towards providing a place for him to live and realize that he had the power to take lives at will and live the rest of his life until he died of natural causes.

You do realize that there is the chance that any person in this country that is convicted of mass murder could be released? Do you realize that Charles Manson's crazy ass has come up for parole a couple times now? At some point they WILL release these nutjobs back on the streets. Go and look at the statistics for repeat offenders that have been released from prison. It is a shame to say that it would take something happening to you or your family to realize what humans are capable of. Until it does, then you are talking out your ass.
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Post by Fairweather Pure »

I would bet you that if you put an ad in the USA today, you would get millions of responses from people more than willing to walk up to a piece of shit murdering coward like this guy and put a 200 grain piece of lead through his face.

Yeah, those people are refferred to as "fucking crazy". God, no wonder America has the reputation for bloodlust. You're what every country in the world fears about America. Pure emotion. Pure hatred.
It is a shame to say that it would take something happening to you or your family to realize what humans are capable of. Until it does, then you are talking out your ass.
The above is nothing more than you talking out of your ass. Here's a little link to a story that has affected me and my GF 2 years ago. You make too many assumptions about myself and my experiances. You cannot undermine my arguments based on conjecture.

http://www.courttv.com/trials/carr/background_ctv.html

Pretty sick, eh? As a matter of fact, I consider this much worse than just about anything I have ever heard of. But it happened to someone I know and has affected my GF's family for life. Now maybe you need to think about stuff like the above before you spew it onto a msg board. You do not know half as much about me as you assume too.
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Post by Axien_Dellusions »

To me the death penalty is a case by case basis. If there is a possibilty the person is innocent DNA could free him which it has been doing here in Texas.

There are people in my opinion that deserve the death penalty. The serial killers that feel no remorse and can not be rehabilitated are some that I feel need to be put to death. People that murder police officers need to be put to death because they hold no respect for the laws.

I believe someone mentioned further up the post that killing someone only increases their popularity and I believe televising McVeigh's excecution like they DID work in the favor of Timothy McVeigh because it did bring more light to his cause and brought back the memories of what he did and what he stands for.

There was a debate going on last night on wheather or not it was okay to excecute obviously rehabilitated inmates, what do you guys think?

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Post by cid »

These sick fuckers should be publicly exacuted. Have it as a pay preview event. The monies raised, then would go to the familes these fuckstains destroyed!!
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Post by Fairweather Pure »

There was a debate going on last night on wheather or not it was okay to excecute obviously rehabilitated inmates, what do you guys think?
Watch the movie "Dead Man Walking". It is very well done and will show you the man, as well as the unforgivable murders he commited. It truely does allow the viewer to make thier own mind up. It is disturbing to many to see killers portrayed as people. Afterall, we don't execute people, we execute murderers, right?
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Post by Lor »

Fairweather Pure wrote:
one thing you can say is we will never have to worry about Timothy McVey again right?.
Were you really worried about Timothy McVey breaking out of prison and blowing up a couple of more buildings? The idea is ludicrus...

Obvious murderes that are premeditated and done with full intent get life in prison with no chance of parole anyway. Killing is the final step and it cannot be taken back.

I appreciate a good, passionate argument and could easily argue pro-death in a debate, but deep down, I know it's just...wrong.
I'm not talking about him breaking out of prison, but he could have gotten released and done this again, then what... put him back in the system for another 20 years?? FUCK NO! he deserved to die for his crimes.
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

I feel terrible for hating criminals. I will go to therapy and learn to love and embrace them. Hopefully someday some sick twisted animal will assault me for money to buy drugs! Then I will love them even more. Until you learn that these people are cowards who prey on people that they hold an advantage over (ie: they have a weapon and you don't), then you are going to be leading a hell of an idealistic life. Interesting that the story also said the one fuckstick should have been in jail but a mistake allowed him to be on parole. Gee....I never would have thought that a criminal would get out of jail and do something bad again.
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Post by Lor »

no, we execute people for murdering other people. This is a good thing.
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Post by Valgul »

I used to be against the death penalty. I felt that executing the killer does not bring back the dead victum. After hearing enough cases of killer being released and killing again, I have to side with the pro-death penalty crowd. May not be able to bring back the dead, but you would keep the killer from killing again.
I agree that all steps should be taken to try to prove thier innocence, if any. But if, as kilmoll says, DNA evidence etc give incontrovertable proof, then the death penalty comes into play.
In the case of the sniper suspect, he should be tried and if found guilty, her should be executed. He did not show remorse at the killings and, if given a chance, would continue killing.
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Post by Sirensa »

The problems with our justice system regarding pre-meditated murder crimes really make it too difficult to argue either for or against the death penalty. However, there are certain guarantees our justice system is fundamentally unable to grant us including, but not limited to:

1) The guarantee that a murderer will never murder again - either within prison (either inmates or guards) or upon being released back into society.

2) The guarantee that every convicted murderer is not innocent.

There are many good reasons to argue either side of the death penalty argument. And I personally don't mind the death penalty, it solves the problem associated with the first guarantee. DNA testing could very well improve problems associated with the second.

I really do not believe this issue should be a moral argument. By committing pre-meditated murder, a criminal's rights are no longer a concern. The concern should be the benefit of society. Will our society be bettered by allowing a murderer to die, or by allowing them to live out their years in prison, potentially contributing postively towards society from their confinement.
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Post by Baglaz »

Fairweather Pure wrote: Either way, I still do not condone the killing of unarmed and bound human being. Especially if it is approved by our legal system, which is completely FUBAR.............
Ok, so then lets be like the Greeks or Romans, and put them in a big ass stadium. Give them a Dagger, then release 10 tigers out. They will surely kill him, but at least he is given a small chance he could live somehow. If he kills them. then he sits in jail the rest of his life.
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Post by Voronwë »

people like TImothy McVeigh or this guy don't get released from jail. ever.

Charles Manson has been up for parole several times. means jack shit.

The only time he will EVER leave that prison is in a pine box on the way to a crematorium.

but i think it is likely that he will be tried in state courts, not federal courts. Virginia will be the place where this guy gets snuffed.
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makes me think of Office Space...

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Post by kyoukan »

Dunno he demanded 10 million dollars to be put onto a stolen credit card thinking that he was going to cash in. That is pretty reasonable grounds for insanity.

Put him in counselling for 6 months and set him up with a nice job where he doesn't have to work too hard, make it someplace nice, and let him become a productive member of the community.
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Post by Voronwë »

kyoukan type-R wrote:Dunno he demanded 10 million dollars to be put onto a stolen credit card thinking that he was going to cash in. That is pretty reasonable grounds for insanity.

Put him in counselling for 6 months and set him up with a nice job where he doesn't have to work too hard, make it someplace nice, and let him become a productive member of the community.
maybe give him this URL?

a supportive community like this will do wonders for him.
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Post by Kylere »

Okay hmm, hard part of this is putting it plainly so the idiots can comprehend yet wordy enough so I do not have nitpicking twits like Kyoukan pick 4 words out of 50 to attack.

1. When a mentally competent person of the Genus and Species called Homo Sapien decides to take the life of another in a premeditative manner, and while not;

A. Under a declaration of war by a UN recognized country
B. Under an direct (Open means previously declared) order requiring use of force (covers police actions, Treaty Obligations, enforcing no fly zones, defending military installations etc) which has the approval of the UN security council.
C. In self defense/defense of others (covers cops, self, home intrusion, protecting loved ones from random nutcase_001 etc)

They should lose the right to live.

2. When a person commits premeditated murder and it is found they are not mentally competent and never have been, they should be placed under medical care for the rest of their natural lives with no hope of parole.

3. Temporary Insanity means you are insane, therefore rule 2 applies.

4. A 48 hour clause shall be invoked, whereby killing someone who has broken rules 1, 2, or 3 within 48 hours of them killing a member of your immediate family shall be considered legal. (Yes this is revenge, deal with it, it is part of human nature, not american nature)

5. When in declared rebellion against the country of ones birth, murder in open combat is permissable but only against members of that nations military, while in a uniform showing your allegiance, attacks other than accidental or unavoidable against civilians will result in punishment under rule 1. Acting as a agent against a recognized government in a country not of ones birth is also punishable under rule 1 unless superceeded by 1A, 1B or 1C.

6. Imprisonment for life is dictated only when there is not CLEAR and proven evidence of guilt or an unforced confession and the crime is still proven beyond a reasonable doubt. However prisoners are required to work a minimum of 50 hours a week, have no rights to any television other than news and education programming, and upon a possible parole ANY crime will result in immediate imprisonment without chance of parole.
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\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
Voronwë
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Post by Voronwë »

interesting factoid about John Mohammed's military record:

Pentagon indicates he had the highest level of M-16 marksmanship they routinely certify.

Federal Investigators also indicate that they recovered a Bushmaster rifle from the Chevy Monte Carlo which as many people already know is the civilian rifle equivalent of a M-16 (not fully automatic).

anyways, i think it is safe to say this guy is the guy.
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Krimson Klaw
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

I can only hope that he does not get the death penalty..PLEASE not. I want him in gen pop so he can get whats due him, day in, and day out, for about 70 years. I am willing to help foot the bill for it too.
Last edited by Krimson Klaw on October 24, 2002, 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Aabidano
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Post by Aabidano »

When you have no intent of rehabilitating someone, and fully intend to lock him up for the rest of his life what's the point? It's not punishment, as that's meant to modify a behavior and you never intend to let him out again. It does nothing for the victim or victims family either.

Life in prison is just as dumb as the death penalty, though probably less expensive in the US.
"Life is what happens while you're making plans for later."
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Krimson Klaw
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

I want him more than punished, or given a quick death. Life in gen pop will be daily torture for a guy that tried to kill a kid. Torture, daily, for 70 years, or for 1 month till he gets shanked, I am not too picky.
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Post by Voronwë »

man your house must be a dump aabi :P

cause i would look at living in a 5' x 5' room where i smell the toilet, with a bunch of humanoids as punishment :)

i pretty much would not be enjoying myself in a Federal Prison, i can guarantee you that!
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Kylere
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Post by Kylere »

interesting factoid about John Mohammed's military record:

Pentagon indicates he had the highest level of M-16 marksmanship they routinely certify.

Federal Investigators also indicate that they recovered a Bushmaster rifle from the Chevy Monte Carlo which as many people already know is the civilian rifle equivalent of a M-16 (not fully automatic).

anyways, i think it is safe to say this guy is the guy.
Military max is 38-40 of 40 shots at targets from 50 to 300Meters, This means you acquire the rating of Expert, 33-37 is Sharpshooter, 27 to 32 is Marksman. In 8 years of service I failed to score Expert 2 times of over 17 qualification sets, both times scoring 36 of 40 hits. It is not impressive to anyone who has served in the military at all, the only serious challenges are the 250 and 300 meter targets, of which you usually see 8 during a qualification. 50 to 150 meter targets with post and ring sights are laughably easy to hit. I frequently in my last 3 years acted as a range instructor, and the number of people who given proper instruction cannot score at least sharpshooter is less than 1 in 9.

The M16 is the military version of the AR15, not vice versa.
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\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
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Post by Voronwë »

thanks for the clarification =).

yeah after i posted that, i saw a Corp. on the air saying how like 20% of all people in the Army get expert rating.
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Post by Zamtuk »

What a dumbfuck. Am I the only one who think these people are morons for being found in the car EVERYONE was looking for. A sleep no less. I am fucking stupified at how this came to be. Maybe I was hoping for a little more of a Hollywood ending or something of the sort, but found asleep in a rest stop on the highway in the most popular car in the fucking nation?!?! Stupidity rules again I guess.
Fuck Michigan!
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TheMachine
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Post by TheMachine »

Just draw and quarter the assholes.
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