Organic Foods

[Zaelath]

Since it's the weekend I had the five minutes required to find better "proof" than a P&T article that there is no scientific basis to think organic foods are superior:

http://cleveland.ces.ncsu.edu/index.php ... &ci=HEAL+4

Are Organic Foods Healthier? There is currently no scientific evidence that shows organic foods are safer, more nutritious, or healthier than conventionally grown food products. The Institute of Food Technologists (IFT), a nonprofit scientific society working in food science and technology, states that using organic foods are not one hundred percent free of pesticides or pathogens, and the practices used in conventional food production allow for an overall safe, healthy, and plentiful food supply. The bottom line: both organic and conventional foods provide equal nutritional value in vitamins, minerals and antioxidants. Since there is no strong research on either side of the issue, it is important to choose a variety of foods, organic or conventional, that fit into a healthy lifestyle.

Linked from the USDA site here:
http://fnic.nal.usda.gov/nal_display/in ... ic_id=1318

Discuss.

[kyoukan]

I just ate some strawberries I bought at the grocery store for like two bucks. A whole box of them.

They were pretty baller. I washed them first so I think I might live.

[masteen]

No, see, the hormonse are injected INSIDE the cells, ur totally gonna die.

[miir]

Haha, nice knowin' ya, bitch!

[Funkmasterr]

I'll edit this post and respond to this one of these days. I'm spending so much time sitting at my computer trying to find a job that by the time I get around to thinking about this I have a fucking headache from staring at the screen.

[kyoukan]

eat more organic kumquats, you dirty hippy.

[Funkmasterr]

[Lynks]

I just ate strawberries the size of my fist without washing them first. Am I going to die now?

[Leonaerd]

Having tiny fists isn't necessarily lethal.

[Canelek]

I didn't wash my jalapenos.

Luckily, my friend is letting me grow some rad chiles and strawberries in her grow room. Woo

[Aslanna]

Interesting article on the growing corporatization of organic foods.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/08/busin ... uence.html

The board has 15 members, and a two-thirds majority is required to add a substance to the list. More and more, votes on adding substances break down along corporate-independent lines, with one swing vote. Six board members, for instance, voted in favor of adding ammonium nonanoate, a herbicide, to the accepted organic list in December. Those votes came from General Mills, Campbell’s Soup, Organic Valley, Whole Foods Market and Earthbound Farms, which had two votes at the time.

Big Organic lost that round. Had it prevailed, it would have been the first time a herbicide was put on the list.

They tried to get a herbicide on the list!

[Funkmasterr]

Yeah, letting the big corporations have a say is bound to make things go bad. It's not just a matter of how much of an effect herbicides/pesticides have on you when ingested. You also need to consider the way it effects water, animals, etc.

Also, considering how the rest of our government is bought and paid for, I am hesitant to give weight to any studies from the FDA.

Buying local is also big, but the benefit of doing so is in jeopardy due to the pull companies like Monsanto have.

There is just as much disinformation and bullshit going on I'm agriculture as there is in politics, but there seems to be a lot lower level of awareness of it in agriculture.

Even if an issue relating to how something I eat effects my health is debatable, I'm going to play it safe when possible, because there hasn't been research on the long term effects a lot of the shit on/in what we eat may have.

[kyoukan]

so if you don't trust companies and don't trust the government, do you just eat only food you grew yourself or do you starve?

[Funkmasterr]

so if you don't trust companies and don't trust the government, do you just eat only food you grew yourself or do you starve?

Trying to paint me as some kind of weirdo is a tad naive. That's certainly not what I do, but I'm much more aware of what is in what I buy and where it came from, and I'm as selective as I can be.

Are you saying that you trust the U.S. government and major corporations here?

I think there are a handful of documentaries/books out there that people could benefit from. There are actually a couple of good ones related to agriculture on Netflix instant watch.

[Zaelath]

so if you don't trust companies and don't trust the government, do you just eat only food you grew yourself or do you starve?

Trying to paint me as some kind of weirdo is a tad naive. That's certainly not what I do, but I'm much more aware of what is in what I buy and where it came from, and I'm as selective as I can be.

Are you saying that you trust the U.S. government and major corporations here?

I think there are a handful of documentaries/books out there that people could benefit from. There are actually a couple of good ones related to agriculture on Netflix instant watch.

Documentary != Fact.

In fact, a lot of documentaries are far less fact based as those 9/11 consipiracy theory videos.

Like Super-Size Me, from wiki: "Spurlock dined at McDonald's restaurants three times per day, eating every item on the chain's menu at least once. Spurlock consumed an average of 20.92 megajoules or 5,000 kcal (the equivalent of 9.26 Big Macs) per day during the experiment." Yeah, given a "normal" meal is 1-2 Big Macs in calories, that would be like eating (say) a whole roast chicken at breakfast, lunch, and dinner. That's a reasonable diet.... it wasn't at all like force feeding yourself for a month... cause it's a documentary.

Thing is, any research you do will suffer horribly from confirmation bias, theirs and yours, so it's rather pointless. If you feel better paying double for your food, then continue to do so, but there's no benefit to you trying to convince anyone else of the wisdom of it.

[kyoukan]

I trust the FDA, USDA or Health Canada a lot more than some fucking agribusiness farmer who will tell me anything to get me to spend my money on his product. The FDA doesn't give a fuck what I buy. They are a bureaucracy who's job it is to make sure what people eat doesn't fucking kill them. They exist whether or not general mills' new cereal gets a FDA organic stamp on it or not. The fucking drastic shit they have done in the name of keeping food healthy and safe puts any other governing body when it comes to regulating food totally pointless. It is their only agenda. The fact they are government organizations makes people of limited intelligence fear and distrust them. If you fuck with the FDA or try to pull a fast one on them they will slap a fine on you so high it is crazy. And they have the power to enforce it.

The odds that you are eating some pesticide ridden filth that you bought at a local roadside stand or open market is so much higher than if you buy a product from the piggly wiggly that the FDA says is cool to eat that it is not even worth mentioning. Who is regulating the idiot that just sold you a bunch of "farm fresh" carrots for twenty dollars? Fucking no one.

[Funkmasterr]

so if you don't trust companies and don't trust the government, do you just eat only food you grew yourself or do you starve?

Trying to paint me as some kind of weirdo is a tad naive. That's certainly not what I do, but I'm much more aware of what is in what I buy and where it came from, and I'm as selective as I can be.

Are you saying that you trust the U.S. government and major corporations here?

I think there are a handful of documentaries/books out there that people could benefit from. There are actually a couple of good ones related to agriculture on Netflix instant watch.

Documentary != Fact.

In fact, a lot of documentaries are far less fact based as those 9/11 consipiracy theory videos.

Like Super-Size Me, from wiki: "Spurlock dined at McDonald's restaurants three times per day, eating every item on the chain's menu at least once. Spurlock consumed an average of 20.92 megajoules or 5,000 kcal (the equivalent of 9.26 Big Macs) per day during the experiment." Yeah, given a "normal" meal is 1-2 Big Macs in calories, that would be like eating (say) a whole roast chicken at breakfast, lunch, and dinner. That's a reasonable diet.... it wasn't at all like force feeding yourself for a month... cause it's a documentary.

Thing is, any research you do will suffer horribly from confirmation bias, theirs and yours, so it's rather pointless. If you feel better paying double for your food, then continue to do so, but there's no benefit to you trying to convince anyone else of the wisdom of it.

How about the environmental effects the shit has, especially on the water. There is absolutely no intelligent person of sound mind that could argue against the negative effects that all the chemicals running off into the water has.

What about the working conditions, the cleanliness (or lack thereof) and amount of disease bred in slaughterhouses? The levels that are deemed acceptable an average levels of contaminant in those big slaughterhouses compared to some smaller farmers that are trying unconventional things are not just minute.

What about the farmers that want to give you a product that's better quality but can't, because when they try to re use their own seeds, Monsanto takes them to court and the farmer can't afford to defend himself even though he did nothing wrong?

I'm not saying something being labeled organic makes it perfect. But it's a good step in the right direction, and given the expense involved in changing the way agriculture is dealt with, small steps and gradual change are necessary.

I don't feel that people in general (but particularly not Americans) have the right to deny positive change that will effect health and the environment in a positive way because it will cost us more money or because we are complacent. Look where that's fucking got us so far.

[Zaelath]

How about the environmental effects the shit has, especially on the water. There is absolutely no intelligent person of sound mind that could argue against the negative effects that all the chemicals running off into the water has.

What about the working conditions, the cleanliness (or lack thereof) and amount of disease bred in slaughterhouses? The levels that are deemed acceptable an average levels of contaminant in those big slaughterhouses compared to some smaller farmers that are trying unconventional things are not just minute.

What about the farmers that want to give you a product that's better quality but can't, because when they try to re use their own seeds, Monsanto takes them to court and the farmer can't afford to defend himself even though he did nothing wrong?

I'm not saying something being labeled organic makes it perfect. But it's a good step in the right direction, and given the expense involved in changing the way agriculture is dealt with, small steps and gradual change are necessary.

I don't feel that people in general (but particularly not Americans) have the right to deny positive change that will effect health and the environment in a positive way because it will cost us more money or because we are complacent. Look where that's fucking got us so far.

I guess it depends what chemicals you're talking about; pesticides? herbicides? I have no real concern with them. In Australia the biggest threat to our ecosystem is irrigation, and just irrigation. Removing water from the river and artificially raising the water table causes it to bring salt with it that has just the same effect as the Romans in Carthage. Not to mention the reduction in water at the mouth of the river completely fucks the ecosystem there. Organic farming drastically increases this problem, GM crops that can handle less water (and hopefully grow in a salt bowl) are the only thing that will solve it.

I've had several members of my family that worked in slaughterhouses, and I've also seen a fellow clean a carcass hanging on his backyard clothes line and transport it in a dirty old wheelbarrow. I know which one had less contaminants. I'm sure there's some problems in every slaughterhouse, but I find it laughable that you think smaller turnover means cleaner, my findings are quite the opposite and the big guys have a *lot* more to lose if they fuck up.

Monsanto's litigation is a completely different problem, doesn't have any direct effect on my food chain though. I agree those fucks make Apple look like Richard Stallman, but it's not a relevant argument.

Organic is a step in the direction of mass starvation. You can __not__ under any circumstances, feed even the US population with (real) organic produce. Not even close. It's not a question of money, it's a question of arable land.

[Aabidano]

What about the working conditions, the cleanliness (or lack thereof) and amount of disease bred in slaughterhouses? The levels that are deemed acceptable an average levels of contaminant in those big slaughterhouses compared to some smaller farmers that are trying unconventional things are not just minute.

For butchering in particular there aren't many "unconventional" things you can do and still sell to the general public without the risk of killing someone.

Someone raised in a non-urban environment with a healthy immune system can eat some seriously nasty crap without ill effect, if you had pets/farm animals even better. Someone raised in an urban environment much less-so in many ways and someone with a compromised immune system is in far more danger.

[Funkmasterr]

How about the environmental effects the shit has, especially on the water. There is absolutely no intelligent person of sound mind that could argue against the negative effects that all the chemicals running off into the water has.

What about the working conditions, the cleanliness (or lack thereof) and amount of disease bred in slaughterhouses? The levels that are deemed acceptable an average levels of contaminant in those big slaughterhouses compared to some smaller farmers that are trying unconventional things are not just minute.

What about the farmers that want to give you a product that's better quality but can't, because when they try to re use their own seeds, Monsanto takes them to court and the farmer can't afford to defend himself even though he did nothing wrong?

I'm not saying something being labeled organic makes it perfect. But it's a good step in the right direction, and given the expense involved in changing the way agriculture is dealt with, small steps and gradual change are necessary.

I don't feel that people in general (but particularly not Americans) have the right to deny positive change that will effect health and the environment in a positive way because it will cost us more money or because we are complacent. Look where that's fucking got us so far.

I guess it depends what chemicals you're talking about; pesticides? herbicides? I have no real concern with them. In Australia the biggest threat to our ecosystem is irrigation, and just irrigation. Removing water from the river and artificially raising the water table causes it to bring salt with it that has just the same effect as the Romans in Carthage. Not to mention the reduction in water at the mouth of the river completely fucks the ecosystem there. Organic farming drastically increases this problem, GM crops that can handle less water (and hopefully grow in a salt bowl) are the only thing that will solve it.

I've had several members of my family that worked in slaughterhouses, and I've also seen a fellow clean a carcass hanging on his backyard clothes line and transport it in a dirty old wheelbarrow. I know which one had less contaminants. I'm sure there's some problems in every slaughterhouse, but I find it laughable that you think smaller turnover means cleaner, my findings are quite the opposite and the big guys have a *lot* more to lose if they fuck up.

Monsanto's litigation is a completely different problem, doesn't have any direct effect on my food chain though. I agree those fucks make Apple look like Richard Stallman, but it's not a relevant argument.

Organic is a step in the direction of mass starvation. You can __not__ under any circumstances, feed even the US population with (real) organic produce. Not even close. It's not a question of money, it's a question of arable land.

You should have concern with them, I guess I don't know specifics about Australia and I'm not an expert on this subject to begin with (obviously), however my dad is really well read and involved with most things to do with the environment and changing the shit we're doing, and I get a lot of articles/books/etc sent to me or recommended by him. There are definitely problems with the fertilizer/pesticides/herbicides etc running off into the water.

Monsanto's litigation is absolutely relevant and absolutely does effect the food chain. Farmers that want to grow natural shit that is better for people and the environment either go bankrupt trying to fight them or end up having to give in and pay to use their genetically altered bullshit.

And who the fuck said anything about feeding the world with real organic shit tomorrow? People said we couldn't do a lot of shit that ended up happening, and I have no doubt that this will be another situation, I just hope we're both alive for me to say I told you so. Just because something isn't viable ass a mass replacement for the current model doesn't mean people shouldn't support efforts to better things. Same goes for alternate energy and breaking our dependence on oil (not just foreign, oil period) and a lot of other things, no shit it's going to be a process but that doesn't mean you just say "fuck it".

[Zaelath]

And who the fuck said anything about feeding the world with real organic shit tomorrow? People said we couldn't do a lot of shit that ended up happening, and I have no doubt that this will be another situation, I just hope we're both alive for me to say I told you so. Just because something isn't viable ass a mass replacement for the current model doesn't mean people shouldn't support efforts to better things. Same goes for alternate energy and breaking our dependence on oil (not just foreign, oil period) and a lot of other things, no shit it's going to be a process but that doesn't mean you just say "fuck it".

I didn't say tomorrow either, it's not viable ever, not without severely depleting the population.

[Aabidano]

Monsanto's litigation is a completely different problem, doesn't have any direct effect on my food chain though. I agree those fucks make Apple look like Richard Stallman, but it's not a relevant argument.

It does effect your food chain, you're paying more every time you visit the grocery store due to the practice. Be glad you can afford it.

As I understand it - Monsanto's litigation primarily involves their rights to engineered crops created by them, wouldn't expect they'd fall into the organic category regardless? They can't sue someone for using "normal" seeds collected as part of the harvest as has been done for 1000s of years. Unfortunately bugs, fungus, etc.. find the normal seeds tasty and you can't feed enough people per acre with them. Which segment of humanity are you going to kill off?

Fertilizer & pesticide run off are a big issue, which 1/2 of humanity are you going to kill off to not have it happen? I'm not sure about the pesticide industry, I know the fertilizer industry itself is a huge environmental impact.

Plus you can loop back around to the far from organic pharmaceuticals, etc.. that are helping people live long enough to create unsustainable populations & get peed out into the water table.

While I can see the argument that they're greedy corporate douchebags - no one else is going to the expense and creating the products needed to feed us either. So....

[Funkmasterr]

For one Aab, you are very much incorrect about Monsanto, read up a bit on their bullshit.

Z - I don't agree. You don't know what kind of discoveries/inventions could be made to change what we can and can't do.

And as far as the stupid who would you kill questions- I don't give a shit. A lot of the things we are doing to the environment (not just shit we've talked about in this thread) is going to end up getting us all killed anyhow if we don't change. The issue of population control is a hard one an I don't know how it should be done, but people all around the world are gonna need to cut the numbers down.

[Aabidano]

Looked a bit, seems similar to what I thought:
Monsanto creates and patents a seed for X
If the farmer wants to plant it he's forced to sign an agreement not to replant his own seeds but to buy more from Monsanto every season among other things (This really blows in third world countries who are screwed if the violate Monsanto's rights)

Monsanto hunts down and litigates for every inkling of a violation. And wins, even in cases where the farmer had no demonstrable knowledge he'd planted Monsanto seed. Plant them once you're hosed. If your neighbor plants them you could well be hosed.

Part of that is due to the way the US legal system works; my employer sues lots of people all the time over seemingly trivial stuff. The problem is that if we don't and can be shown to have known about the trivial violation we could lose the right to sue over a big violation.

Didn't look into how much they spend on lobbying to keep the gravy train going, would imagine it's significant. Mostly going to the GOP at a guess but I'm just pulling that out of my butt. Typical corporate douchebaggery.

They also massively shafted all their retirees and a good chunk of their employees ~15 years ago after leeching the retirement system dry & spinning the retiree liability off as part of a certain to fail subsidiary that quickly went bankrupt (Hi Bain Capitol!*). Letting Monsanto walk away from huge liabilities of all sorts, retiree, environmental & other.

And as far as the stupid who would you kill questions- I don't give a shit.

Perfectly valid question, without an alternative you're just whining like a vegetarian. Similar to the people whining about Nuclear and Coal but unwilling to reduce their own power consumption or look at alternatives.

*Not saying they were involved, it is a decent slice of what they did & still do though. Perfectly legal but immoral and slimy.

[Funkmasterr]

I'm not just whining, I'm doing exactly what you suggest. I do everything I can to reduce my footprint in every way possible, but I'm no scientist (yet) and can't come up with solutions myself. What I do want though is to see everyone do what they can to push for solutions to our problems, the government and corporations aren't going to do it on their own.

[Zaelath]

Z - I don't agree. You don't know what kind of discoveries/inventions could be made to change what we can and can't do.

Discoveries/inventions? Like irrigation, pesticides, herbicides, genetic modification? What kind of "organic" inventions are you suggesting?

I'm just going to bow out here... you're either trolling or batshit insane.

[Aabidano]

Discoveries/inventions? Like irrigation, pesticides, herbicides, genetic modification? What kind of "organic" inventions are you suggesting?

Which would require a non-profit version of Monsanto, a super expensive undertaking that no one will support.

See: NASA, CDC, USDA, public education, mass transit, public health, pharma.....

[Funkmasterr]

Z - I don't agree. You don't know what kind of discoveries/inventions could be made to change what we can and can't do.

Discoveries/inventions? Like irrigation, pesticides, herbicides, genetic modification? What kind of "organic" inventions are you suggesting?

I'm just going to bow out here... you're either trolling or batshit insane.

I'm neither, you're being a hardheaded fuckwit. I have no fucking clue what scientists will do over the coming decades to deal with this and any number of the other major problems we've caused on this planet, point being I find your attitude in general, applied to any of the environmental/social issues we have fucking unacceptable, but unfortunately it's the attitude many people have.

[Zaelath]

Z - I don't agree. You don't know what kind of discoveries/inventions could be made to change what we can and can't do.

Discoveries/inventions? Like irrigation, pesticides, herbicides, genetic modification? What kind of "organic" inventions are you suggesting?

I'm just going to bow out here... you're either trolling or batshit insane.

I'm neither, you're being a hardheaded fuckwit. I have no fucking clue what scientists will do over the coming decades to deal with this and any number of the other major problems we've caused on this planet, point being I find your attitude in general, applied to any of the environmental/social issues we have fucking unacceptable, but unfortunately it's the attitude many people have.

You might think I'm hardheaded, but from what I know of "organic" it precludes all the scientific advances that we've made in the last hundred years which means it likely precludes any advances in the next hundred. Add to that, we've done all the easy stuff already and that productivity increases generally follow the law of diminishing returns, and it's pretty clear to me the "science" you're relying on to solve the problem is the same kind of aspirational stuff that says we will solve our energy problems magically when we most need it, or that if we just monitor and repress our own people a little bit more terrorism will be impossible, or if we get out there and give 110% our band of rag-tag misfits can beat this team of all-stars in <popular sport>.

I'm not sure you know what my attitude to environmental issues is. But you should know what my attitute to science based on the discovery of the hopium element is now.

[Canelek]

As long as it ain't Monsanto Farms, I am generally not too picky about produce (well, produce that doesn't look abhorrent).

Side note: Poland recently successfully banned Monsanto genetically-enhanced corn. Good win there.

[Sylvus]

I'm not sure that I have a problem with genetically modified agriculture. I'm not saying Monsanto isn't an evil company, just talking about particular products of theirs. Take the Chicken Little picture you see people sharing on facebook about the Monsanto Bt sweet corn coming on the market:



I read an interesting retort to the photo here: http://soursaltybittersweet.com/content ... sweet-corn

In fact, Monsanto is so stereotypically evil that I totally understand why people are willing to believe that food grown from their seed is dangerous, that Monsanto could be aware of this but try to sell it to you anyway, and that the regulatory agencies who ought to stop them have probably been effectively bought off.^ However, that’s not what’s happening here. I’m reasonably certain that Bt sweet corn is totally safe for human consumption. If it’s not and Bt is a real threat, then no sweet corn you can buy is safe for human consumption because Bt insecticides have been used by organic farmers for over 50 years.

I recommend reading the whole thing, it's got some interesting facts that make you think about how the whole organic movement isn't necessarily an altruistic thing with your best interests in mind.

What really makes the veins in my temples throb uncomfortably is when people post things like the ad above with a tagline like “This is why it’s so important to know where your food comes from!” I don’t expect people to be experts on Bt, or any other aspects of farming and food production. Most people have more pressing things to do with their time than actually find out whether the organic berries at the store were grown using sodium nitrate mined in South America that leached perchloride into surrounding waterways, which might interfere with the human thyroid gland if it seeps into drinking water. Or if this or that brand of organic wine was protected from fungus with copper sulfate, which is toxic to fish and accumulates in the soil and in the breastmilk of vineyard employees (see: the section of Just Food titled “Chemicals” pp. 62-72).

But if you insist on posturing as an informed consumer, the least you can do is pay attention to the sources of your information and attempt to verify suspicious claims. Especially if someone has a clear profit motive for getting you to believe something or is trying to sell you on an idea by making emotional appeals, like gesturing towards oblique threats to pregnant women, google that shit.

[Canelek]

My main beef with them is their seedy business practices and the risk of homogenizing biodiversity.

[Keverian FireCry]

My main beef with them is their seedy business practices and the risk of homogenizing biodiversity.

Nice one!

[Boogahz]

yeah, pretty sneaky there

[Canelek]

Not often that I can insert beef and seed at same time rimshot