NFL News/Discussion 2011

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » November 17, 2011, 1:21 pm

Putting in a new QB always ignites a struggling team, no matter how shitty the QB is. This is due to several reasons:

First, the team probably gave up on the last guy at some point and started laying down. Putting a new guy in gets them in the "lets give them a chance" mindset and the other guys start playing a little more. I don't think anyone can argue that this has occured since KYLE MOTHER FUCKING ORTON got benched. The guy inspires no one around him.

Second, opposing teams usually do not have any kind of resume built up on the replacement. So when, say Ponder comes in off the pine to take McNabbs place, no one knows the guys tendencies or favorite reads because there is no tape on the guy. This was certainly the case in Tebow's first game, and probably last week as well.

Third, shitty teams break down against street ball. Guys break containment and get out of their assigned lanes. A young guy creates a kind of anarchy that inept defenses go to shit against, when he is scrambling for his life all game. Teams with descent defenses do not make these sorts of mental errors, which is why I think Tebow is going to get his ass force fed to him by the Jets tonight.

Eventually, when Denver plays someone who can actually stop the run, his shitty stats are going to matter.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » November 17, 2011, 3:14 pm

Jice Virago wrote:Aslanna hit the nail on the head. McNabb was arguably the most successful running QB in history, in terms of getting to and winning post season games, and even he never made the Superbowl, plus he got hurt a lot. The dude needs to learn how to pass or else Denver had better get used to a long string of 8-8 seasons, which I guess is improvement and could win that division this year....

This is the most inaccurate statement ever made on the sports forum. McNabb is not even in the top 3 of running QB's that I could come up with off the top of my head.

Fran Tarkenton blows him away in every category.
Randall Cunningham ring any bells?
And the #1 running QB of the Super Bowl era.....Steve Young.

I am sure if anyone cared, they could come up with more.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 17, 2011, 3:41 pm

Tonight is a much more difficult task--not because of the Jets--due to the simple fact that Willis is questionable with that gimp hammy. Lance Ball, while a sometimes decent runner, is not the bruiser. However, I have high hopes for Jeremiah Johnson (former Duck). Dude is quick!

Bottom line, if Tebow can make some passes (especially on 3rd down), Denver has a real shot at being considered more than an awful team with a handful of good players. Add some depth and replacement parts next year, and the rebuilding effort will start bearing fruit.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 17, 2011, 3:44 pm

Elway, Farve (to a degree)....Moon?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » November 17, 2011, 3:46 pm

maybe soon, you can add Cam Newton to the list

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » November 17, 2011, 4:00 pm

@Killmol-
Forgot Steve Young, though more people consider him a passer rather than a runner, but point conceeded on Young. But the other guys in the top 5 (of which you mentioned two) had no real post season success. Say what you want about McNabb, but he went deep in the playoffs almost as much as Young did and with far less talent around him. Its also worth noting that Young had issues with concussions that likely cut his career short. I think Vick is going to end up in the tank after next season, as well, since he is taking the combined pounding that a RB and QB get. Whether its because he is a running QB or because the refs are looking the other way due to the dog thing, who knows, but bottom line is he is getting crushed physically every game.

@Cano-
I would put Elway and Favre (and likely Peyton Manning) as the last of the gunslinger quarterbacks, who were really passing guys with strong improvizational skills that sometimes led to running plays. They were also among the toughest men to ever play the position and I doubt we will ever see their like again in the sport, though Romo is an example of a less successful gunslinger QB.

@Winnow-
I agree with that, but he is actually a really good passer. I think once Newton gets better at reading pro defenses we will see his running stats drop but passing stats climb, as he no longer has to compensate with his legs. This is basically the same sort of transition Favre, Brees, and Rapelessburger made early in their careers.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » November 17, 2011, 5:58 pm

Cut short?

Young played for more years than McNabb has! So did Cunningham. So did Tarkenton. All 3 have more rushing yards and attempts than McNabb.
Elway actually would be another as he has almost identical rushing yards and attempts.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 17, 2011, 6:17 pm

I wouldn't quite put Manning in the scrambling category! Tarkenton -> absolutely.

Young... yup, but mostly on merit of that 49 yard run he had against (if I remember correctly) Minnesota back in 1989 or so...the one where he slipped in some crappy turf and almost ate it.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » November 17, 2011, 6:52 pm

Talking to a friend of mine just now, and he had this to say about Tebow. Tebow does all the things that CANNOT BE TAUGHT. He's a leader. He's tough. He's got a work ethic that would make Japanese Amish feel like slackers. He's got amazing character.

All his flaws are things that can be fixed with practice and coaching. He spent the offseason as the third stringer behind two pocket passers. You give him all the time wasted on Neckbeard and Quinn, and you seriously think that a guy who puts out the kind of effort that Tim does in EVERYTHING wouldn't show improvement?

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » November 17, 2011, 7:05 pm

I am not sure you can teach him what he needs to be a great QB. The great QB's have an anticipation of where a receiver is going to be and the ball is there when the receiver comes out of his break. I do think he can be MUCH better of a thrower, but like most of the running QB's he is not going to be a great thrower. The Tarkentons and Youngs and Elways are just supremely rare.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 17, 2011, 7:10 pm

Also, to date in the NFL, he still has not been able to shorten his throwing motion. For his part though, he looked much better in the pocket the last couple weeks--especially against the Raiders.

Like I've said, the reads will come with time, and likely, he will improve much with experience and more basic skills work.

I hope Tebow does well, because my team hangs in the balance!

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » November 17, 2011, 7:21 pm

Kilmoll, you are ignoring the important qualifier: _Successful_ Running QB
Young, if he is classified as a running QB, yeah he was vastly successful and I admit I forgot about him because I always considered him a passer.
McNabb, 8 deep runs in the playoffs, arguably better than a lot of players ever see.
Vick and Cunningham, not so much.

And Masteen, your obsessive Tebow manlove is starting to border on creepy. Plenty of players are hard workers in the NFL and some of them actually know the fundementals of their positions too, like say Rodgers, Brees, or the Super Manning Bros. The real question is should Denver be forced to waste three seasons waiting for him to learn shit that every pro QB should already know, especially at a time where a fucking college team could win the AFC West? Good luck getting any quality recievers to play there for the forseeable future, if that is the case.

Fact is, there are guys out there in backup positions with the skills to go with the work ethic (but not the homoerotic love of Jesus, I admit) that Denver could make a play for. In the current league environment, with passing being so dominant, sitting around waiting for a guy to develop fundementals is not a good strategy. I agree that you sit KYLE MOTHER FUCKING ORTON and let Tebow take the pounding for the rest of the season, since they already used the hook on Orton and they are going to toss him next year, anyhow. But you can't stick with streetball over the long haul.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 17, 2011, 7:30 pm

Right. And there is nobody waiting in the wings should Tebow not be the answer in Denver. Orton & Quinn -> Gone next season. Barring a mega-trade for a top-3 draft pick on a QB, they will be picking mid-late first round, depending on Tim's performance (I am assuming 7-9 wins unless teams figure out their modified option sooner than expected.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » November 17, 2011, 7:31 pm

I said it earlier, but there are capable backups that could be starters out there. Matt Flynn is the most obvious one, but there are certainly others.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 17, 2011, 7:49 pm

Mallett!

And there are also questionable backups as starters, like Kolb

masteen · Post by **masteen** » November 17, 2011, 9:24 pm

Matt Flynn is the next Matt Cassel. Sure, he looks great in the best offense in the NFL. What's he going to do without that?

Jice, your blind hatred of Tebow is probably more disturbing. At least I have a reason to love my fellow Gator alum. You're just a hater out of nowhere. Also, all those top tier NFL guys had a few awful seasons of getting their shit pushed in before reaching the top.

And you've clearly never coached or been coached at any level above streetball. QBs aren't born knowing how to run receiver progressions or read defenses. Telepathy is not what makes Rogers or Brees. It's intimate knowledge of their systems, years of relative stability in said system, and, oh yeah, FUCKLOADS of talent around them that also fit those systems.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » November 17, 2011, 9:31 pm

Tebow is leading the NFL in yards per completion. Now if he ever manages to complete more than 8 per game, that could mean something. Admittedly, I have no idea what.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 17, 2011, 10:07 pm

Yeah. It is hilarious how Tebow has made the QB rating and that stupid Dilfer-QBR-tarded score formulas break.

Bottom line: Who knows if Tebow will grow into a serviceable passer. Taking away the opposing ends of spectrum (re: FL Alumni, Tebow-followers, anti-FL, anti-Tebow), I think most folks just shrug and want to see what happens.

*shrug*

masteen · Post by **masteen** » November 18, 2011, 1:48 am

Canelek wrote:Yeah. It is hilarious how Tebow has made the QB rating and that stupid Dilfer-QBR-tarded score formulas break.

Bottom line: Who knows if Tebow will grow into a serviceable passer. Taking away the opposing ends of spectrum (re: FL Alumni, Tebow-followers, anti-FL, anti-Tebow), I think most folks just shrug and want to see what happens.

*shrug*

Can you really argue with 4-1? Timmah? TIMMAH!

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 18, 2011, 2:12 am

Impressive defensive effort by Denver! Von Miller....rookie...continues to dominate. Dude hits quarterbacks. Dumerville looking back to form as well. They had Sanchez beat to shit.

Tebow. Grossly overthrown passes. But, makes it work at the end. Dude is a bruiser--love the effort and that he lowers his shoulder and runs over people (Revis). Made it work. 4 come from behind victories in 6.5 starts? He also has large arms.

Colquitt - that guy can punt!

Jets - Lol

masteen · Post by **masteen** » November 18, 2011, 4:16 am

Canelek wrote:He also has large arms.

Dude lifted with the linemen at Florida because the other backs were unable to spot him. We're talking 450+ on the bench press.

Kluden · Post by **Kluden** » November 18, 2011, 10:39 am

Tebow was awesome to watch lastnight, that's for sure! Grats on beating the reeling Jets, i guess.

I don't think anyone can argue against Tebow and that system in Denver right now. Clearly Fox is playing their best option of winning...and its working. There's enough tape out there now though, so how the rest of the season goes will be the true judge of Tebow. But so far, can't really argue against it. I love his attitude. The guy is electric...those people doing the tebow pose around the world is hilarious, and fun!

Great "fun fact" about him lifting with the Pouncey's! haha But he wasn't at a school with a big back like Ingram/Richardson.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » November 18, 2011, 2:47 pm

I was pissed that Shonn Green went down. He was poised to score me a lot of points because LT was out. Then he gets hurt in the first quarter! ARRRGGGG

I stopped watching pretty much at half time. I laughed when I saw that the Jets lost.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 22, 2011, 10:03 pm

Kyle Mother Fucking Orton done got hisself waived today. Bears and KC still on Denver schedule...

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » November 23, 2011, 10:50 am

Canelek wrote:Kyle Mother Fucking Orton done got hisself waived today. Bears and KC still on Denver schedule...

Cardinals should pick him up! (only semi joking) It couldn't be worse than what we have seen at least for the rest of the year.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 23, 2011, 1:00 pm

Interesting. It would be like the Anti-Snake, The Unsnake MotherFucking Orton!

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 23, 2011, 6:44 pm

Kansas City for K-Dog Motherfucking O-Town.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » November 23, 2011, 6:51 pm

haha, Chiefs take Donkey droppings? wtf?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » November 27, 2011, 5:14 pm

Winnow wrote:
Jice Virago wrote:Plus, the Cards actually have to make opposing teams punt for him to be a factor.
So three out of eight teams have punted to him so far. Not bad. Maybe they'll learn that you can't try to punt and drop it at the goal line because Peterson will return it anyway. At worst, that would give the cardinals the 20 yard line each time.

Patrick Peterson now has 4 punt returns for TDs, has tied NFL record and he's only a rookie, all 80+ yards.

Difference maker.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 27, 2011, 11:06 pm

During the Denver v San Diego game today, in OT, CBS cameras caught Sand Diego kicker Nick Novak apparently pissing on the sideline while being screened by a trainer/coach/fluffer.

What a dumbass! He should know that the cameras will be focusing on him since OT usually ends in a FG...and, despite popular opinion, NFL games usually have more than a couple camera operators present...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekjh0K7i7bE

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » November 27, 2011, 11:14 pm

When you gotta go you gotta go!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » November 28, 2011, 11:10 am

Beanie Wells 228 yards rushing, 1 TD

He can be extremely impressive when he's healthy although even yesterday while he was ripping off huge gains, he came out like every other play with his knee issue. If he showed signs of being healthy more often, he'd be a top RB. His stiff arms are brutal. He has the power to run inside combined with the speed to get outside and turn the corner, even if there's a defender there.

It would be nice if he kept on turning in good performances the rest of the year and Ryan Williams who the cardinals drafted last year, recovers fully so Arizona can trade Beanie for something decent to another team that can be frustrated with his injuries.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » November 28, 2011, 11:21 am

Ran across the perfect quote to sum up a lot of the anti-Tebow blabbering:

"Who is this guy, and what is he doing to our precious, normal game of football?"

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » November 29, 2011, 10:46 am

Boogahz wrote:Ran across the perfect quote to sum up a lot of the anti-Tebow blabbering:

"Who is this guy, and what is he doing to our precious, normal game of football?"

There may be some of that but I think its a lot more about "show me some consistency against quality opponents". Sorry but so far the only quality team the Broncos have beat with him starting has been the Jets, and thats debatable this year. Michael Vick, who has a superior skill set to Tebow, looked awesome for a stretch last year too, and now that teams figured out what he is going to do, he looked ordinary to lower echelon (before he got hurt). Tebow can feel good and his fans can rejoice in what he is doing right now but in the long haul, he won't last for 2 reasons:

- defenses will figure out how to contain and neutralize his running ability, and his passing game IS sub-par.
- the hits he takes with his style of play will catch up to him

I've got nothing against the guy (aside from being sick of the media circus his presence creates but thats not his fault) but I just don't see it lasting beyond the end of the season at the outside.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » November 29, 2011, 11:12 am

Broncos could be screwed for a long time. Rabid (religious) Tebow fans will demand they keep Tebow and blame losses on the devil.

Having not watched him at all in college, he looked horrible against San Diego on Sunday. He looks like a a baseball pitcher, pitching from the stretch with that long ass wind up he has before he chucks the ball over the receiver's head. Stop me if he has some sort of medical condition that prevents him from throwing in a more standard method, but is he unable to improve this release for some reason? Is he coachable?

A couple solid hits from linebackers should slow down his running like it does for all running rbs eventually.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 29, 2011, 12:36 pm

Hard to say if his delivery can be shortened. Really need a full offseason. Some of his throws looked much better, due to the O line giving him time so he didn't have to scramble.

But it isn't about Tim, it is the defense making these games winnable, and that gives them a shot to make the playoffs.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » November 29, 2011, 1:48 pm

Tebow's QB rating is higher than Vick, Kolb, Freeman, McCoy, Rivers, Sanchez, Flacco, Cassel, Grossman, and Bradford.

the reason for that is he is not turning the ball over. He has thrown for as many TD's as Orton had, but has only 1 int. the same team is also 5-1 during his starts, while 0-4 under Orton. The big difference is Tebow and this offense is not turning the ball over and is running clock off to keep the other teams from having as many opportunities to score.

miir · Post by **miir** » November 29, 2011, 3:17 pm

What stupid fuckhead,non sport playing, armchair, madden playing, fantasy footbal faggots do not understand about actual sports is that some players are winners and some are losers. Orton is a winner. He makes the other players believe in themselves and they play harder because of the winners in the huddle. Stats are for losers and fantasy fags. Give me a QB that "manages the game" and manages to win 10-12 games a year and goes to playoffs and Super Bowls over any of these pass crazy bullshit QB's that cannot win.

Just sayin

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 29, 2011, 3:47 pm

The way I see it, even if it is not sustainable, they are winning, and if they make the playoffs, may scare some folks.

In other news...

Yes, Peterson is a fantastic returner. Look out once he gets better and better at handling WRs at the line and generally becoming a better CB.

Suh. Lol.

Tight AFC wild card race shaping up with DEN, NY, CIN and TN all at 6-5. DEN has head to head tiebreakers over CIN and NY, with TN having the tiebreaker over DEN. OAK continues to grow with Palmer, so they are indeed a factor.

NE continues to quietly do their thing as well, as is PIT. I just can't see Baltimore making much playoff noise...

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » November 29, 2011, 4:14 pm

Canelek wrote:Suh. Lol.

Could see his game getting dirty fast as his last season at Nebraska was coming to an end. The Thanksgiving event, and his comments afterwards were just sad. Man needs some serious help.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » November 29, 2011, 5:54 pm

miir wrote:
What stupid fuckhead,non sport playing, armchair, madden playing, fantasy footbal faggots do not understand about actual sports is that some players are winners and some are losers. Orton is a winner. He makes the other players believe in themselves and they play harder because of the winners in the huddle. Stats are for losers and fantasy fags. Give me a QB that "manages the game" and manages to win 10-12 games a year and goes to playoffs and Super Bowls over any of these pass crazy bullshit QB's that cannot win.

Just sayin

I was right....until something broke Orton and he lost it entirely! I am still not sure what took him from 6-0 to complete and utter shit. I am still right about people playing harder for people who have "it". Teeeeeeeeeeebow is proving that so far. Once his players lose faith in him, then it going to be shitsville in a hurry though.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » November 29, 2011, 8:02 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Once his players lose faith in him, then it going to be shitsville in a hurry though.

Or until he breaks down and cries after a loss!

masteen · Post by **masteen** » November 29, 2011, 9:03 pm

That's one of the things that the guys who've played with him respect the most about him: he CARES. He cares about his team, his teammates, his coaches. He cares about little Filipino orphans and his imaginary friend Jesus. Yeah, he's a bit of a crier, but at least he's not whiny, punk-ass bitch like Orton.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 29, 2011, 10:10 pm

Si. At the time, Kilmoll was absolutely correct.

As for Tebowwww, well, the simple fact that he rallies his team around him is good enough for me as a DEN fan. He makes them better, for now. And yeah, the kid really gives a shit, which is a rarity. Never seen anyone with that much drive to win. Sheer effort to overcome his frailties, etc. Quite fun to watch!

His numbers didn't speak to it, but he made some great passes along the sideline and down the middle, which were problematic earlier on. I really think he can figure it out despite the loopy arm movement. Will see how the O Line deals with Jared Allen this Sunday...

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » November 29, 2011, 10:26 pm

A lot of sports players care. They don't cry about it but they care. Larry Fitzgerald with his fat contract, still gets fired up for every game on a losing team and cares a lot even if there's no chance of getting in the playoffs.

Tebow's got his religious thing going and with how fanatic that crowd gets, he'll always have cheerleaders in the stands.

I don't dislike him and am not rooting against him but I need a few more miracles and maybe the virgin mary (is that the one that shows up on toast and stuff?) to appear in the end zone before I'm a believer.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » November 30, 2011, 1:57 pm

what does his religion have to do with anything?

any interview with a player after a win is always filled with things like 'give god the glory'

players have "Tebowed" for decades in the endzone after td's.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » November 30, 2011, 2:45 pm

Boogahz wrote:what does his religion have to do with anything?

Exactly! Shut up and play the game. Separation of church and sports. It's in my constitution.

Kurt Warner was uber religious but he finally toned it back.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 30, 2011, 2:50 pm

I just tune it out. In fact, I really don't listen to Timmy since he doesn't really say anything that I don't expect. Once dude gets a dirty hooker blowjob behind the local Chick-fil-A, he should mellow out a touch.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » November 30, 2011, 3:13 pm

Canelek wrote:I just tune it out. In fact, I really don't listen to Timmy since he doesn't really say anything that I don't expect. Once dude gets a dirty hooker blowjob behind the local Chick-fil-A, he should mellow out a touch.

Have you seen his girlfriend? Google images of "Tebow Girlfriend"
Tim "Honkers" Tebow

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » November 30, 2011, 3:33 pm

Suh. Lol.

Sheed. Cabrera. Suh.

The Red Wings need to pick up the trend.

what does his religion have to do with anything?

It undermines the hard work his teammates put into the game when he says "I thank god for ______" after a win. Additionally, neglecting to say "it wasn't god's plan for us to win" after a loss furthers the insanity: give god the credit except when it's the team's fault, eh?

There is no good way to be an irrationalist these days.