Spring Training Poll - NL West

Animale · Post by **Animale** » June 5, 2008, 1:58 pm

Xyphir wrote:Wow... someone using data to support a claim. I'm impressed.

I would agree that Ryan does not make the top of my list for best pitchers of all time. There are just too many incredible pitchers that were/are better... Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Warren Spahn, Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Satchel Paige, Greg Maddux... heck, I'd put the Big Unit over Ryan. The one thing that is being missed is that Ryan threw 7 no-hitters during his career. No perfect game, but 7 no-nos accounts for something.

And that something is the Hall of Fame. He definitely belongs in there, but all this talk about "best pitcher ever" for Nolan Ryan is a bunch of hooey from folks who don't understand baseball stats-wise. No-No's are a combination of luck (batting average on balls in play are typically around .280-.300) and good K rates to limit the numbers of balls in play. He had good K rates over his entire career, and was lucky/had great stuff 7 times. Again, not to limit his accomplishments - he was a great pitcher for a LONG time, but not the best ever, not the 10 best ever even, probably in the 15-20 range I'd guess. Which is still a heck of a career and tons of talent.

Animale

Truant · Post by **Truant** » June 5, 2008, 1:59 pm

Animale wrote:I heard a story about the Ventura/Ryan incident the other day (no idea if its true). Apparently, Ventura knew when he charged the mound he was going to be beat as Ryan had a reputation for being a hardass, but he felt he had to do it anyway to keep up the machismo. After the game, Ventura asked him something along the lines of "why'd you just hit the top of my head" to which Ryan replied something like "your face is too pretty to mess up." So, they both knew it wasn't a "real" fight going in.

Ok, this first part I know as fact. I'll share the story my dad told me when I was growing up after that.
Ryan wasn't a fighter for most of his career. He would just try to hold someone off, but he really didn't fight back. He didn't want to...he thought it was unsportsmanlike, etc. In 1980 Dave Winfield beat the fuck out of him after charging the mound, and Ryan decided that he would fight back from now on. He didn't get charged very often anyways, but from that point on, he wasn't taking any shit. Hence why Ventura got his head smacked when Ventura charged the mound.

My opinions, Ryan didn't hit him on purpose, and didn't hit him that hard. I have no idea why Ventura decided to charge the mound. He got made fun of everytime he came to Arlington after that tho.

My dad had always told me that Ventura had fought Ryan once before, when Ryan was in non fighter mode. And so the second time Ventura charged, Ryan said "fuck you" and beat his head. But the dates don't make sense. Ventura didn't start playing until after the Winfield '80 incident. So that's nixed. My dad is generally full of shit anyways.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 5, 2008, 2:35 pm

Animale wrote:
That said, Johnson is a better pitcher than Ryan was, Clemens is a better pitcher than Ryan was, Pedro is a better pitcher than Ryan was (lets use ERA+ and Cy Young awards as a measure shall we). Johnson, career ERA+ = 138 (4 Cy Young). Clemens, career ERA+ = 143 (7 Cy Young), Pedro, career ERA+ = 160 (3 Cy Young), Ryan, career ERA+ = 111 (0 Cy Young). Ryan also has a career 2-1 K/BB ratio (for example, Johnson has a 3.27-1, Clemens a 2.98-1, Pedro a 4.27-1 K/BB).

Animale

I like your stat analysis but you short changed Johnson one Cy Young. He has 5 (1 AL, 4 NL). Please recalculate!

Animale · Post by **Animale** » June 5, 2008, 4:05 pm

Thought only the NL ones counted for you Arizona folks

Animale

Trek · Post by **Trek** » June 5, 2008, 7:21 pm

Ryan was brought up because Johnson was #2 in career K's, so that would lead to who is #1.....which isnt Johnson and never will be. Say what you will about Ryan sucking, being lucky, only a HoFer because his arm lasted a long time on Advil or whatever your gripe is about the guy, but its doubtful anyone will eclipse what he was able to over 3 decades of players/baseballs/parks ect but there will be others that pitch a perfect game

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 5, 2008, 7:39 pm

No one is arguing that Ryan is the strikeout king or that his total K's record will ever be broken

The impressive stat with Randy Johnson is that he passed Clemens having pitched 1,000 less innings and also his K/9 (strikeouts per nine innings) is the best.

When it comes to efficiency as a strikeout master, the Big Unit is the best. Run support from a pitcher's team that factors into wins for the pitcher is something beyond their control (except for NL pitchers that have a small contribution by actually batting)

Animale · Post by **Animale** » June 5, 2008, 8:32 pm

Trek wrote:Ryan was brought up because Johnson was #2 in career K's, so that would lead to who is #1.....which isnt Johnson and never will be. Say what you will about Ryan sucking, being lucky, only a HoFer because his arm lasted a long time on Advil or whatever your gripe is about the guy, but its doubtful anyone will eclipse what he was able to over 3 decades of players/baseballs/parks ect but there will be others that pitch a perfect game

I guess I don't see how saying he's a legitimate Hall of Famer, and one of the top 20 pitchers ever, is belittling him or griping about him. He was what he was, an above average power pitcher with bouts of the sublime whose arm lasted a longass time. It just gets on my nerve when people label Ryan the "best ever" when, by every measure of pitching success other than career K's and career no hitters, he is undeniably inferior to everybody I (and Xyphir) mentioned plus several more.

Animale

Trek · Post by **Trek** » June 5, 2008, 8:35 pm

For the record, I never said anything negative about Johnson or any of his accomplishments. I actually was a fan until he went to NYY, yes even when he helped the Snakes win a championship. Just watching you run around Az sports figures lapping the sweat from their balls is worth the time to type anything close to a troll

Trek · Post by **Trek** » June 5, 2008, 8:40 pm

Animale wrote:
Trek wrote:Ryan was brought up because Johnson was #2 in career K's, so that would lead to who is #1.....which isnt Johnson and never will be. Say what you will about Ryan sucking, being lucky, only a HoFer because his arm lasted a long time on Advil or whatever your gripe is about the guy, but its doubtful anyone will eclipse what he was able to over 3 decades of players/baseballs/parks ect but there will be others that pitch a perfect game
I guess I don't see how saying he's a legitimate Hall of Famer, and one of the top 20 pitchers ever, is belittling him or griping about him. He was what he was, an above average power pitcher with bouts of the sublime whose arm lasted a longass time. It just gets on my nerve when people label Ryan the "best ever" when, by every measure of pitching success other than career K's and career no hitters, he is undeniably inferior to everybody I (and Xyphir) mentioned plus several more.

Animale

Who is saying he is the best ever?

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » June 5, 2008, 8:52 pm

Nobody. Just like every other time someone claims that he isn't the "best ever" and how annoyed they got that someone (supposedly) claimed he was.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » June 5, 2008, 11:09 pm

Boogahz wrote:Nobody. Just like every other time someone claims that he isn't the "best ever" and how annoyed they got that someone (supposedly) claimed he was.

Huh? Your like Winnow's fanboi or something arent you? I think he could just add your name to his sig and save you from needing a PC

Trek · Post by **Trek** » June 5, 2008, 11:10 pm

Boogahz wrote:Nobody. Just like every other time someone claims that he isn't the "best ever" and how annoyed they got that someone (supposedly) claimed he was.

Huh? Your like Winnow's fanboi or something arent you? I think he could just add your name to his sig and save you from needing a PC

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » June 5, 2008, 11:38 pm

Trek wrote:
Boogahz wrote:Nobody. Just like every other time someone claims that he isn't the "best ever" and how annoyed they got that someone (supposedly) claimed he was.

Huh? Your like Winnow's fanboi or something arent you? I think he could just add your name to his sig and save you from needing a PC

What the fuck are you talking about? I probably bash Winnow's fanboyisms regarding all things AZ here more than anyone else. Hell, half of the stats he tries to pull out of his ass prove him wrong on almost every sport he posts about.

I was answering your own damn question asking who claimed Ryan to be the best ever. Nobody did, but Animale felt the need to go off as if someone did.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » June 6, 2008, 12:05 am

Nolan Ryan would have been a lot better if he had ever played on a team worth a shit.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 6, 2008, 12:20 am

Nolan Ryan would have had 500 wins and 10,000 K's if he did roids.

Nolan Ryan could take out any heavyweight boxer in history in less than a round.

Nolan Ryan is Chuck Norris tenfold .

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 7, 2008, 1:06 am

Brandon (won't get to 20 wins) Webb picked up his league leading 11th win tonight 3-1 over Pittsburgh.

Were you saying he won't get to 20 wins before the All-Star break or before the end of the season?

Trek · Post by **Trek** » June 7, 2008, 1:40 am

11 kinda looks like 20, but if you really look at it closely it isnt. 20 to get 200 from a snake fan is always worth a shot. Still a long ways to go kid

Xyphir · Post by **Xyphir** » June 12, 2008, 12:44 pm

Mark Reynolds giveth (3 run HR in the 9th) and then he taketh away (Error in the 13th which cost the D'Backs the game). Looks like Webb should be fine after the shot he took. What an amazing game. The rubber match today, Haren vs. Santana.

Go Mets!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 12, 2008, 1:10 pm

Xyphir wrote:Mark Reynolds giveth (3 run HR in the 9th) and then he taketh away (Error in the 13th which cost the D'Backs the game). Looks like Webb should be fine after the shot he took. What an amazing game. The rubber match today, Haren vs. Santana.

Go Mets!

Yeah, Reynolds is a liability on defense. I've seen him make several bad throws to first and generally bobble balls, etc.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » June 12, 2008, 6:09 pm

Santana pitched pretty damn good today. However, the Mets bullpen decided that they didn't like "W's" so gave up 5 runs to give the D-Backs another win. How's that for charity?

This team is looking more and more like the 1993 Mets. I would say 1962, but at least that team was entertaining!

Trek · Post by **Trek** » June 18, 2008, 5:31 pm

Moving this bs out of the basketball thread

Winnow wrote:
Trek wrote:
im not, you said he would get 20 wins before the break after I mentioned I had a bet that he wouldnt get 20 wins this season....I never said 'I didnt like him' but unlike you, I dont think he is the second coming of CY

Quote where I said he'd get 20 wins before the break and wasn't asking a question.

Who's your favorite pitcher sparky?

You made the leap by asking if my bet was that he wouldnt make 20 wins by the allstar break, sure you where asking question, that isnt really a question. If I make a bet that he wont get 20 wins this season...that in fact includes him getting there by the break

so you where infering that he was going to.

Right now my favorite pitcher is Lincecum, who is on a big rival team...big whooped de doo. I pull for him when he is pitching. Sure Webb has more wins then this kid, but I would take Lincecum over Webb if given the choice. In LA, I really like Billingsly this guy is freaking nasty at 23, if his arm holds out he will be a stud K-man. That Volquez kid in Cincy is fun to watch to.....

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 18, 2008, 7:01 pm

Trek wrote:
You made the leap by asking if my bet was that he wouldnt make 20 wins by the allstar break, sure you where asking question, that isnt really a question. If I make a bet that he wont get 20 wins this season...that in fact includes him getting there by the break so you where infering that he was going to.

Right now my favorite pitcher is Lincecum, who is on a big rival team...big whooped de doo. I pull for him when he is pitching. Sure Webb has more wins then this kid, but I would take Lincecum over Webb if given the choice. In LA, I really like Billingsly this guy is freaking nasty at 23, if his arm holds out he will be a stud K-man. That Volquez kid in Cincy is fun to watch to.....

A bet that Webb won't get 20 wins this season doesn't include that he get there by the break. By that thinking, it would include him not getting there a nanosecond after you made the bet. Getting 20 wins by the end of the season means getting 20 wins by the end of the season. He leads the major league in wins so as of my post yesterday, he's in better shape for getting to 20 than any other pitcher. He may not lead in wins forever, but at this point, it's hard to make fun of him, leading in wins with a Cy Young already banked.

Xyphir · Post by **Xyphir** » June 18, 2008, 7:08 pm

I'd take Lincecum over Webb too. You can't go by Wins to determine the better pitcher. Shit. Bob Gibson was 22-9 when he set the modern ERA record (1.12). If you want to compare pitchers, ERA is a much better figure because it doesn't take into account run support.

Lincecum's ERA is more than a full point under Webb's (2.21 vs. 3.23). To be fair, he was pitching 2.73 before last night's debacle. Webb does have a better K:BB ratio (3.28 vs 2.5). They come pretty close in average length per outing. Lincecum averages 7 innings/game and Webb is one out less. The real measurement, and the telling statistic is how well each does with men aboard. Lincecum blows Webb away. With men on, opponents are batting .164. With RISP, it's .121! Webb doesn't even come close (.217 and .241 respectively). When men get on base, Lincecum buckles down and makes pitches. The NL average with RISP is .257, so you do the math. The kid has great stuff.

That aside, I like me some Aaron Cook!

Trek · Post by **Trek** » June 18, 2008, 7:37 pm

I really dont know how you can argue, my bet is that Webb doesnt get to 20 wins this season. Cut it any way you want, at the end of the regular season if he has 20 wins or more I lose....if not I win. If he can get there in a nanosecond, I lose. By the break, I lose. Tommorrow, I lose. Anytime between now and the end of the regular season, I lose.

I really dont see anywhere that I made fun of him. Must be hot down there

Webbs CY was for a 16-8 record 3.10era, not really CY numbers and Derek Lowe, John Smoltz could have as easily gotten the nod in a not so great year for NL SP's

You arent saying that wins makes Webb the bestest ever are you? That means Clemens is the 8th best pitcher of all time and Randy Johnson would be like 25th or something....a few spots behind Glavine

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 18, 2008, 8:16 pm

I'm saying Webb has the most wins in the majors. There are four pitchers with one less win so that may change soon.

The earlier discussion was about him getting 20 wins this season and I'll take that bet.

The Randy Johnson discussion was about being grouped with the best pitchers of all time, not Webb.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » June 18, 2008, 8:38 pm

You have been eluding to the fact that Webb is the best pitcher out there right now because he has the most wins. So I lumped Johnson in there for the hell of it because I would rank Johnson much higher then he appears on the all-time wins list as I dont think wins is the best way to rank pitchers.

If you want to give me the same bet that I have $20 to make $200, then have at it....tho I doubt I will see your $200 when he doesnt make 20 wins this regular season.

I know you think Webb is one of the best pitchers out there right now and sure, he is good but he is not what I would call a 'top' pitcher just yet. Maybe if he does nab himself a 20win season someday and stays in a little longer then he has muc of his career, I will change my mind. Really this wouldnt even be a discussion if you didnt 'rah rah rah Webb is the greatesst', he had a hot start and now its time to see if he can make it last the whole year

Trek · Post by **Trek** » June 22, 2008, 8:14 pm

Another loss for Webb. Not saying he is a bad pitcher, but 20 wins is a difficult road for someone who has never travelled it. Even with one of the best starts ever, there is still a long way to go.

On that note the Dodgers still suck

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 24, 2008, 2:22 am

Diamondbacks 2, Red Sox 1

Oh yeah!

D'Backs +4 up on second place Dodgers in the NL West!

Trek · Post by **Trek** » June 24, 2008, 8:49 pm

Winnow wrote:
D'Backs +4 up on second place Dodgers in the NL West!

Hey Winnow! Tell me how my ass tastes

Trek · Post by **Trek** » June 24, 2008, 8:49 pm

Winnow wrote:
D'Backs +4 up on second place Dodgers in the NL West!

Hey Winnow! Tell me how my ass tastes

Trek · Post by **Trek** » June 24, 2008, 8:49 pm

Woohoo 2fer1

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » June 24, 2008, 8:51 pm

1 for each cheek!

Trek · Post by **Trek** » June 28, 2008, 2:14 am

Good news on Webbs quest to be the bestest evar......he will pitch against Miller so he a a very good chance to win.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » July 3, 2008, 1:40 am

Its been awhile since Winnow reminded me how many games up the Snakes are

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » July 3, 2008, 1:56 am

Arizona has a losing record and is still in first place in the NL West.

Webb has 12 wins and looks good to win 20 on the year.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » July 3, 2008, 2:03 am

Pretty weak when the first place team isn't even over .500.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » July 3, 2008, 2:56 pm

Arizona Catcher Chris Snyder “Fractures” Left Testicle

July 3, 2008

This story brought me to my knees on first read. In a game Monday night Arizona Diamondback catcher Chris Snyder “fractured” his left testicle after a foul tip shot into his grundle. The play occured in the fourth inning when Milwaukee’s Cory Hart swung at a low pitch.

As of Tuesday Snyder was placed on the 15-day disabled list and now he is expected to have surgery- despite an earlier report.

When RBI heard of the terrible mishap, we asked around to find out what exactly it means to “fracture a testicle”. Unfortunatley, the word fracture has nothing to do with a bone in this case.

According to eMedicine.com, a testicular rupture or fractured of the testis refers to a rip or tear in the tunica albuginea resulting in extrusion of the testicular contents. I think I would rather have one of my arms cut off. OUCH!

RBI’s advice: FOR GOD SAKES PUT A HELMET ON THE OTHER HEAD!

One thing is for sure….this Diamondback will not be circling the bases for a long time!

Truant · Post by **Truant** » July 3, 2008, 4:15 pm

I used to catch and I have two things to say.
1. That guy is a fucking moron for not wearing a cup while catching.
2. If he was wearing a cup, he's still a fucking moron for not making sure it is in proper place EVERY single pitch.

This kind of thing happens quite often to catchers. If they choose not to wear protection, they're damaged in the head.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » July 3, 2008, 5:42 pm

Now he's a true Arizona man!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » July 3, 2008, 6:24 pm

Full Name Christopher Ryan Snyder
Birth Date February 12, 1981
Birth Place Houston, TX

Ah, that explains it!

I kind of feel bad for the guy. His player page has "testicular fracture" listed all over the place.

Jul 3 : Snyder (left testicular fracture) will not require surgery, according to the Arizona Republic. "That's good news," manager Bob Melvin said. "The timetable will still be the same; it will still be a two-week period. He'll be back at the end of the All-Star break."

Jul 2 : Snyder, who suffered a left testicular fracture from a foul ball on Monday, was placed on the 15-day disabled list on Tuesday, reports the Arizona Republic.

Jul 1 : Snyder left Monday's game in the fourth inning after being hit with a foul ball in the nuts, reports the East Valley Tribune. He is listed as day-to-day.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » July 3, 2008, 7:33 pm

Nice article on baseball's win leader

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3471290

The D'Backs just scored six runs in the 9th inning (no outs) to beat Milwaukee 6-5. No decision for Webb though!

Trek · Post by **Trek** » July 4, 2008, 12:14 pm

Its a good article for a non 20 game winner

Trek · Post by **Trek** » July 5, 2008, 3:01 am

Winnow wrote:
Full Name Christopher Ryan Snyder
Birth Date February 12, 1981
Birth Place Houston, TX
Ah, that explains it!

Explains what? why he had 2 in the first place?

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » July 6, 2008, 1:26 pm

Lincecum and Volquez both got screwed, Webb is the third or forth best starter in the NL so far this year (tossing Ben Sheets in there too)

Trek · Post by **Trek** » July 6, 2008, 1:42 pm

Pherr the Dorf wrote:Lincecum and Volquez both got screwed, Webb is the third or forth best starter in the NL so far this year (tossing Ben Sheets in there too)

Pff, who are you kidding? Webb is 3-4 in his last 9 which in Az should make him win the CY and may as well put him in the HoF to, see he will get in long before he retires..

He did have an awesome start and he gets props for that, but Volquez and Lincecum Have been much better pitchers tho their win #'s dont show exactly how good they have been

Trek · Post by **Trek** » July 6, 2008, 1:45 pm

Oh yeah, fuck the Giants for beating up on LA last night....we could have been in 1st with this heartless club!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » July 7, 2008, 1:28 am

10Ks and 1 earned run in 6.1 innings for Randy Johnson. Game 211 with 10+ Ks.

...and a Win for the D'Backs, holding off those pesky Dodgers!

Grats to the other two D'Back pitchers going to the All-Star game as well. Haren has better stats than Webb, just crappy run support.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » July 8, 2008, 8:27 pm

Well crap, Webb pitching against the Nats......Dodgers stint in 1st may be short lived

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » July 8, 2008, 10:53 pm

D'Backs 2
Nationals 0

Webb stands alone with 13 wins

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » July 21, 2008, 6:48 pm

The NL West should be absorbed into the collective farm systems of the other divisions. It is lol.

Who will win the NL West?