Sept 13: An unlucky day for cheaters

[Wulfran]

Belichick and the Patriots get a combined $750k (including the highest fine ever levied against a coach by the NFL) in fines and lose potentially a first rd draft pick.
http://www.tsn.ca/nfl/news_story/?ID=218268&hubname=

McLaren fined $100 million dollars and strip of their pts in F1.
http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/news_stor ... 0&hubname=

With Belichick and the Pats I thought "whoa" when I read about the conditional picks (lets be honest, its the Pats thus it will be the 1st rounder) but I was (and am) of the opinion that they deserve stiff penalties, in light of the warnings they've recieved and as repeat offenders. The fines didn't seem that significant in the big picture when you talk about the NFL's revenues, etc. but I also recognize that Belichick was fined the max the league could fine him. After some second thoughts I am wondering, however, if losing that pick is much of a penalty, considering they are a prestigious franchise whose players accept less to stay (i.e. guys like and including Bruschi) and other players want to go there to increase their chances of winning a championship.

The McLaren thing flat out made my jaw drop at the size of the fine. $100,000,000 US. I don't follow motorsports and don't know the dollars involved in racing (I realize it has to be significant with its ties to the automotive manufacturers etc) but thats a huge pill for anyone. From what I read it doesn't sound like its over but...

[Sabek]

With Belichick and the Pats I thought "whoa" when I read about the conditional picks (lets be honest, its the Pats thus it will be the 1st rounder) but I was (and am) of the opinion that they deserve stiff penalties, in light of the warnings they've recieved and as repeat offenders. The fines didn't seem that significant in the big picture when you talk about the NFL's revenues, etc. but I also recognize that Belichick was fined the max the league could fine him. After some second thoughts I am wondering, however, if losing that pick is much of a penalty, considering they are a prestigious franchise whose players accept less to stay (i.e. guys like and including Bruschi) and other players want to go there to increase their chances of winning a championship.

The other thing that makes this less severe than it appears at first look is that the Patriots already have 2 first round picks. Theirs and San Francisco's. They loose theirs but keep San Fran's which is going to be the better pick anyway.

[Truant]

I may catch shit for this, but here goes...

The thing with the Pats. Signal stealing/reading has gone on in baseball/football for as long as I've been alive (and most definately longer). The quarterback has an earpiece in their helmet to recieve offensive calls...I really don't understand why the defensive captain doesn't have an earpiece for the same thing. There's already an acceptable alternative to signals in football, so why isn't it utilized? It makes little sense to me.

I personally used to watch other teams during little league baseball playoff tournaments and pick up their signs. It's what we did, and I was good at it. If a team didn't change their signs for each game (like we did), then we knew their signs. That's just how it was. I don't see the big foul.

[Sabek]

Well I believe the issue in this case has to do with using "technology" to do it.

The issue with giving a helmet headset to the defense is that they want only one person on the field having it. With so many substitutions and defensive configurations, who gets the headset?
Some defenses have a linebacker call the plays, some have a safety do it.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

I don't think it is JUST the taping. They have also been known to have the opposing coache's headsets just "stop working" on crucial drives and other nice little things through the last few years. The thing about what they were doing is that they could break the signals down for every game and every team during a game and gain an enormous advantage.

Now it still means the players have to do their job, but imagine being a card player and you have someone with a camera showing you what cards your opponent holds. They knew in the offensive huddle what the defenses were going to do....so they could change their blocking to max protect or check off to screens or a run to bust a blitz. I would also not doubt they were tapping the opposing QB's headsets to know the plays being called either. Bellicek is just a complete ass.

My hope is that they get their asses stomped the rest of this year as every team gets super fired up to play them and knows they will be on equal footing now.

[Sueven]

The thing with the Pats. Signal stealing/reading has gone on in baseball/football for as long as I've been alive (and most definately longer). The quarterback has an earpiece in their helmet to recieve offensive calls...I really don't understand why the defensive captain doesn't have an earpiece for the same thing. There's already an acceptable alternative to signals in football, so why isn't it utilized? It makes little sense to me.

I personally used to watch other teams during little league baseball playoff tournaments and pick up their signs. It's what we did, and I was good at it. If a team didn't change their signs for each game (like we did), then we knew their signs. That's just how it was. I don't see the big foul.

Here are my points.

1. Sign stealing is considered far more acceptable in baseball than it is in football. You just can't draw an analogy between the sports.

2. Along the same lines, football teams prepare their communication strategies in reliance on the fact that no-one is stealing their signals. Baseball teams prepare their communication strategies realizing that the other team will try to steal their signals.

3. Along the same lines, it's a lot easier to come up with new signals for "steal," "take," "hit and run," "fastball," "curveball," etc, every week, than it is to come up with entirely new signals for a playbook that is likely several hundred pages long.

4. What the Patriots did is explicitly against the NFL rules. There's a specific rule against that very action. Bill Belichick claimed that he 'misinterpreted' it, which is ludicrous, because it's a clear rule and no-one else who read the rule seems to have had any trouble with it.

5. The technology element. If a person is trying to steal your signals, you can speak softly, hide your hand, whatever. If a camera with zoom capabilities that you don't know exists is stealing your signals, there's nothing you can do about it.

6. Like Kilmoll said: This isn't the only method of cheating that the Patriots have been pretty extensively accused of.

7. People are particularly pissed off at this because New England has had pretty uncanny play-calling throughout the course of their dynasty. Almost as if they knew exactly what plays were coming...

8. Going along with number 7, people are pissed because the Belichick doesn't seem remotely sorry. He apologized to the Kraft's and the Patriot family, but not to the fans, and not to the teams he cheated. His bullshit 'misinterpretation' excuse also rings hollow-- it's a lie. There is no way that Belichick didn't realize that he was violating the rules.

9. Defensive captains should have earpieces and they very likely will next year.

[Winnow]

Don't you think that every visitor's locker room in the NFL is bugged? I don't see why not. Same for NBA locker rooms, etc.

Unless teams do bug sweeps, how would you know?

The headsets are also supposedly encrypted but what about the actual rooms that offensive coordinators sit in?

[Deward]

This explains a lot as to how Belichik was able to win with sub-par players on defense for so many years. He really never had that many superstars on the team period.

As a football coach myself, I can say that knowing what the other team is doing is a HUGE advantage. If you know they are going to blitz then you can take advantage. If they are running a zone then that is exploitable as well. I had an old coach come up to me one day and talk about how his team use to keep soemone on the opposite sidelines to listen to the opposing coach and then radio the info over. I found that pretty disgusting and would never stoop that low. I personally believe the patriots got off easy in this case.

[Animale]

Maybe it's because I'm mainly a baseball fan, but I really just don't see what the big deal is (in terms of "tarnishing the legacy" etc. etc.). Basically, if this dude was in the stands filming it wouldn't have been anything, but because he had field access it was? I guess he could get better angles and move around on the field, which he couldn't do in a seat in the stands, but still... hire 5 video guys in the stands and you'd have the angles covered. Just seems like a technicality to me (admittedly it was spelled out that you cannot do it, so it is a breaking of the rules... just seems like it's on the level of the uniform infractions in baseball - an administrative issue).

If I ran a football team I sure as hell would want my coaches creating large video/scouting libraries of everybody's tendencies in the league. Again, that's what baseball scouts do every fucking day... pitchers and hitters create books on the opponents utilizing video technology etc. etc. (i.e. when the count is 2-1, he throws an inside fastball to righthanded hitters 75% of the time).

Also, this seems to be a media driven story... equating this with PED's?!?! Come on, you can't be serious. I guess I don't think that "doing your homework" as a coaching staff should result in major problems. Also, this is one of those "rabbit hole" things, not sure the NFL wants to go down it... we may end up with no first round next year! (well, except for the Raiders and Lions... they suck so bad that if they did "cheat" they deserve a reward for doing it so ineptly over the last few years)

Eh, enough ranting... this just seems to be much ado about nothing to me.
Animale

[Aardor]

Maybe it's because I'm mainly a baseball fan, but I really just don't see what the big deal is (in terms of "tarnishing the legacy" etc. etc.). Basically, if this dude was in the stands filming it wouldn't have been anything, but because he had field access it was? I guess he could get better angles and move around on the field, which he couldn't do in a seat in the stands, but still... hire 5 video guys in the stands and you'd have the angles covered. Just seems like a technicality to me (admittedly it was spelled out that you cannot do it, so it is a breaking of the rules... just seems like it's on the level of the uniform infractions in baseball - an administrative issue).

If I ran a football team I sure as hell would want my coaches creating large video/scouting libraries of everybody's tendencies in the league. Again, that's what baseball scouts do every fucking day... pitchers and hitters create books on the opponents utilizing video technology etc. etc. (i.e. when the count is 2-1, he throws an inside fastball to righthanded hitters 75% of the time).

Also, this seems to be a media driven story... equating this with PED's?!?! Come on, you can't be serious. I guess I don't think that "doing your homework" as a coaching staff should result in major problems. Also, this is one of those "rabbit hole" things, not sure the NFL wants to go down it... we may end up with no first round next year! (well, except for the Raiders and Lions... they suck so bad that if they did "cheat" they deserve a reward for doing it so ineptly over the last few years)

Eh, enough ranting... this just seems to be much ado about nothing to me.
Animale

I think you're missing the fact that he could use the information gathered immediately (by relaying the defenses play directly to Brady) for an unfair competitive advantage. I questioned how useful the information on knowing the defenses call before the play happened, and the "experts" (ex-players, coaches, various commentators, news writers, etc) almost unanimously agree that this would be a HUGE advantage for Brady and the Patriots.

Now, if you believe Belichick that the video was only used for after game review, then your points about doing your homework is valid. However, I believe the teams have an agreement to share tapes after games for review, for this purpose. Oh, and the coaches apparently get their own camera to record whatever they want, which is legal, when using the camera in the coaches camera box.

I'm am extremely interested to see how this story develops over the next few weeks. As reported on last night, Goodell is still investigating the issue, and can increase or decrease penalties as he sees fit, given new information. Peter King sums up Goodell's plans with the on going investigation pretty well in his MMQB article today: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/w ... topstories

[Kilap]

They can only use the information after they have deciphered the signs that the other team is using and correlated them with the schemes that other team employs. Someone already mentioned that football playbooks are extraordinarily intricate and would most likely take several series to see even all the lineups that a team uses. Not to mention the different coverages and blitzes. The signals that they record and can decipher will only benefit them during that week's game, because any football team that isn't retarded will switch their signs if they play a team more than once. So however long it takes to 'crack' the opposing teams signs, from that point maybe they could utilize them for a competitive advantage.

But how would this course of events take place in time for them to use it on a play. They would need to watch the opposing signal caller call in the play or plays, check their super secret decoder book, pick a play to WTFPWN that play, call it in to the quarterback who needs to tell it to his teammates either in the huddle or on the line and get the play off before the clock runs out. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it seems pretty unlikely to me. Not to mention that many times there are audibles based on what the other team comes out in.

All in all, I just don't see the enormous advantage that this videotape grants the Patriots. And I'm not even remotely a Patriot fan. Born and raised in Houston, I'm a former Oiler/current Texan fan through and through. The Patriots win because they are well coached and because they have an amazing QB in Brady. You rarely see them turn the ball over and they almost always win the turnover game. I remember hearing that this footage was of the opposing defensive signal caller, so arguing that this is the reason that the Patriots do more with less on defense makes no sense.

They were clearly in the wrong here and deserved to be punished for it. It was a direct rule violation; they got caught and get to pay the price. I just think that people are going extremely overboard with the claims that this tarnishes the Patriots past Super Bowl wins and all that. If you remember in those games, the Patriots were the team that held on for dear life at the end of games and never won by magically figuring out the opponent's defense in the 2nd half after they cracked their defensive code.

[Winnow]

I'm serious. What's stopping teams from placing a bug in the visitors locker room? If you're cheating, you may as well spend a few dollars on a bug and listen in on pregame and halftime activity.

It's not that hard or expensive to bug a room. I have a feeling it happens a lot more in sports that we think.

[Deward]

The signs really aren't that intricate. They have to be out on the field pretty quick. My team has one sign for the defensive formation and then additional signs for the blitz packages. I have to be able to get my defense in fast as soon as I figure out what I think the offense is going to do. The signing I have seen in baseball is way more intricate. I usually have three motions for each defensive call. The play clock is only 25 seconds long in football so we can't wait around like they do in baseball.

[Arsecn]

[Sylvus]

I love it when people hate on Tom Brady.

The guy has more money than anyone could ever need, 3 Super Bowl rings, 2 Super Bowl MVPs, he impregnated a superhot actress who had his baby boy and takes care of it for him, and is currently dating perhaps the hottest supermodel in the world. Fag indeed!

I like being me, but if I had to trade lives with anyone, I used to always think it would be Hugh Heffner. Now I'm pretty sure it'd be Tom Brady.

[Winnow]

I love it when people hate on Tom Brady.

The guy has more money than anyone could ever need, 3 Super Bowl rings, 2 Super Bowl MVPs, he impregnated a superhot actress who had his baby boy and takes care of it for him, and is currently dating perhaps the hottest supermodel in the world. Fag indeed!

Yeah, but went to the University of Michigan!

I think Brady's the best QB in the NFL with Payton Manning being the only other QB near him.

[Spang]

I love it when people hate on Tom Brady.

The guy has more money than anyone could ever need, 3 Super Bowl rings, 2 Super Bowl MVPs, he impregnated a superhot actress who had his baby boy and takes care of it for him, and is currently dating perhaps the hottest supermodel in the world. Fag indeed!

It's just a cover.

[Trek]

As much as it bugs me that they cheated, I am pretty sure many teams cheat to win. I dont like the Patsies and I hate that they got caught cheating, but if it was my team (Eagles) and it got us 3 superbowl wins I probably wouldnt give a shit.




god I wish I could see a Eagles championship someday

[Ashur]

And in a drama that's almost remincient of the Tour de France, Jackie Joiner gives up her 5 olympic medals for admiting she was on "the clear".

Tune into ESPN 8, The Ocho! for full details

[Spang]

Are you sure you don't mean Marion Jones?

[Ashur]

No, I am not sure. In fact I am positive you are correct and I do mean Ms. Jones. Thank you.

[Boogahz]

At least they were smarter than this group!

OFF THE POST: Not such a clever way to fix a game
Thursday, Oct 11, 2007 7:00 AM ET
DURING A CAMEROON FIRST DIVISION game, Bamboutos FC's coach calls Federal SC captain Nkoun a Rim to the sideline for a chat late in the second half after Federal tied the game, 2-2. Shortly afterward, Bamboutos captain Koss Roger hits the floor and acts injured. In full view of the spectators, already suspicious because of the sideline conference, Bamboutos' trainer hands Roger an envelope. Roger returns to action and hands the envelope to Nkoun a Rim, who makes a lackluster effort in the play that leads to Bamboutos' winning goal. Cameroon's federation has relegated Bamboutos FC two divisions and has banned the officials and players involved in the incident for at least two years.