Greg Oden found to be 48 Years Old

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Winnow
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Greg Oden found to be 48 Years Old

Post by Winnow »

It looks like Amare's going to be able to contribute to the Suns' success this year.

Some worry about how Amare will impact the great team chemistry when Nash, Bell, Marion, and Diaw are on the floor. But picture this...leave the Suns starting lineup as it is...and then, when the starters are resting, bring in Amare, Leandro Barbosa, Banks (our new backup PG) and James Jones (and maybe keep Marion in the game) as a second unit. That reserve unit can focus on Amare as the scorer and definately keep the Suns in the game while the starters get quality rest minutes. Sweet! I like the Suns this year. Shocker!

The season starts in two weeks!
Amaré makes strides in victory

Paul Coro
The Arizona Republic
Oct. 16, 2006 12:00 AM

LAS VEGAS - Suns center Amaré Stoudemire's comeback is appropriately intertwined with a city where people start to get ahead and can't quit.

Stoudemire's year long journey through two knee surgery rehabilitations has given him plenty of doubts, but his recent on-court performances, such as the 15 points he scored Sunday in a 99-91 preseason victory over the Los Angeles Lakers, will keep him moving ahead.

Two months ago, Stoudemire was supposed to play here for USA Basketball but left town early after some sluggish practices. Stoudemire said this summer that he would be back in Las Vegas in February for the NBA All-Star Game.
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On Sunday, Stoudemire's performance was somewhere in between but much further ahead than at the start of training camp. He cleaned up a Marcus Banks miss with a rocking, two-handed slam. He got caught under the basket, only to reverse his course and dunk. He even played more defense than he did most of the time before the knee surgeries, blocking shots from the weak side and coming up with five steals - "I've been watching Raja Bell tapes on defense," Stoudemire joked - to finish a nice stat line that included nine rebounds (four offensive).

"You guys don't understand how good it feels to really be back out there on the court with these guys," Stoudemire said. "It's been a long time. There have been times when I never thought I'd get back to this point. But I just maintain and make it through. I'm still trying to get better."

Most important, Stoudemire played 31 minutes, more than any other Suns player. Although Phoenix again thrived without him for the game's decisive, 14-0 run in the second quarter, Stoudemire stayed on the floor for the entire fourth quarter with an all-reserve unit, including Banks, Jumaine Jones, James Jones and Leandro Barbosa.

He helped stave off the challenges, although he mostly was facing off against reserve Ronny Turiaf on a night that Lakers coach Phil Jackson was not here and starters Kobe Bryant and Kwame Brown did not play.

"The big test is Tuesday; can he back this thing up?" Suns coach Mike D'Antoni said, referring to a preseason game against the Clippers at US Airways Center. "I'm going to play him until his lungs blow up, because he has to play."

Conditioning and confidence have been Stoudemire's biggest issues, but both seem to be inching closer to 2004-05 mode.

"Mentally, it may not come until physically he feels the confidence," point guard Steve Nash said. "His physical ability will really improve his mental game. To get a lot more confidence and belief in himself, I think then the game will slow down for him mentally. He's got a lot of work ahead of him."
Last edited by Winnow on September 13, 2007, 8:44 pm, edited 51 times in total.
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Post by Sueven »

Good to see that he's improving. I hope he's able to get back to what he once was.

You have to admit that it's been a much rockier recovery than the initial statements from the Suns (and yourself) would have indicated. It seems unlikely that he'll ever fully regain his natural athleticism. With that in mind, are you happy with the contract he signed?
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Post by Winnow »

Sueven wrote:Good to see that he's improving. I hope he's able to get back to what he once was.

You have to admit that it's been a much rockier recovery than the initial statements from the Suns (and yourself) would have indicated. It seems unlikely that he'll ever fully regain his natural athleticism. With that in mind, are you happy with the contract he signed?
I'm ok with the contract. It's taking longer than was hoped..but isn't two years what it takes anyway for knee type recoveries...meaning even if they do play the first year, they aren't back 100% until the 2nd year...works that way for NFL RBs at least.

I'm not so sure about him "not" getting back to his pre-knee surgery explosive self. It appears he's doing his normal athletic dunks without a running start, blocking shots, getting steals (5 steals isn't too shabby that last game). I think he has a chance for close to full recovery. There are no televised games until the regular season October 31st so I can't say how he looks from seeing him.

I am being precautious and treating him like a bonus addition to the Phoenix team that returns from last year. I'd like to see him in a role as I described above where he playes the off minutes (even if it ends up being ~30/game), especially if any chemistry issues need to be worked out in the beginning. I personally think Amare will be devastating with both Nash and Diaw distributing and Marion out on the court. I see no problems playing both Diaw and Amare at the same time. If it meshes, I'd like to see:

PG Steve Nash
SG Raja Bell
SF Shawn Marion
PF Boris Diaw
C Amare Stoudemire

Reserves

PG Marcus Banks
SG Leandro Barbosa
SF James Jones
C/PF Thomas


Man, that looks good to me.

It's a question of how Amare will fit in because last years Suns were on the verge of going to the finals and the inside presence which that team lacks is exactly what Amare can fill...along with being a monster scorer...and someone who goes to the line a bunch each game...whcih the Suns also didn't have at the end of games last season. He shoots ~80% from the line, so won't hurt the Suns #1 spot in FT%.

Even is he only plays ~20 minutes a game, he's shown in the games he did play last year and what he's done so far this year that his production per minutes played is outstanding.

Edit: The Suns have 35 nationally televised games in 2007 so you can see them a lot if you want. : )
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Post by Kelshara »

An Amare in shape SHOULD be a powerful addition. However, I will say what I said last year just before he returned: There is a chance he will change the game flow and not for the better. Sometimes having a superstar is not necesarily good for the team. See also the Knicks :)

Remains to be seen though.
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Post by Winnow »

I think this was the put-back dunk a few days ago in Vegas (UNLV logo in middle of court). Hope it didn't bounce off the rim like it appears!

Looks like his elbow could touch the rim. He's got his hops back:

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Post by Winnow »

Just some early NBA stuff because football is making me sick to my stomach atm!

Top Five players according to Dime Magazine:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/6049954

Notables:
5. Steve Nash, Phoenix Suns

When the news broke that Steve Nash was going to win his second straight NBA MVP award, Dime took a strong stance, calling BS on the voters. We believed then — and still believe now — that Kobe should have taken the hardware for his 2005-06 accomplishments. From that, a lot of our readers thought Dime was bashing Nash or didn't like his game. Far from it.

In fact, if we were picking a team today to win one game with everything on the line, we'd absolutely take Nash as our point guard.

Look at what he's done over the last two years in Phoenix. There's the 17 points and 10.9 assists per game, the 116 regular-season wins, and the back-to-back trips to the Western Conference Finals. On top of that is the fact that — with Nash running the show — guys like Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, Tim Thomas, Boris Diaw, Leandro Barbosa, Raja Bell, Joe Johnson and Quentin Richardson have looked better than they ever looked in their careers. That's more than a coincidence.
Marion at #13:
Shawn Marion, Phoenix Suns

Another Dime cover meeting has concluded, and once again, Shawn Marion's name is left on the cutting room floor. It's not his fault, really. And in fact, it's amazing how Marion's name has continually come up in these meetings for so long now. However, there's always someone bigger at the moment. Someone hotter. Someone who will sell more magazines off the newsstand no matter what Shawn Marion does on a basketball court.

Marion scores inside and outside. He cleans the glass on both ends of the floor. He plays D on everyone from point guards to power forwards. He blocks shots, gets steals, passes the ball and sets screens. Not to mention he plays more minutes than almost anyone else in the League, and in a system that runs its players almost as much as a soccer team. And if Marion can't perform all of those duties, then the Suns are not one of the NBA's elite teams. It's as simple as that.

If there's one drawback to his game, one thing that keeps him out of our Top 10, it's that when the game is on the line and the Suns need a bucket, he's not particularly adept at creating his own shot.

Another thing with Marion is, he has become so consistently great that his standout feats barely stand out anymore. In a four-game stretch following the 2006 All-Star Game, Marion averaged an absurd 33.5 points and 18.7 boards a game. Coming from anyone else, 33 and 18 at least gets you top billing on "SportsCenter." For Marion? Just another Matrix night.

Towards the end of this past season, Matrix made some rumblings in the national media about not getting as much attention as teammates Amare Stoudemire and Steve Nash despite all he does on the court. Well, we're watching, Shawn, and we see you.
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Post by Winnow »

Sports Illustrated picked the Suns to win it all.

They have Miami on the cover though. Is it a cover curse or a #1 pick curse from SI? I think the Suns still have a shot!

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basket ... g.reports/

The Suns just resigned Diaw so everyone is under contract long term. Woo!

Jason Kidd, LeBron James and Boris Diaw were the only three players to average 6 rbs and 6 assists a game last year. It's sick to have such a great passing, unselfish, versatile big man in the same lineup as Steve Nash with Amare, Marion, and three point shooting Raja Bell in the same lineup to receive all of those assists.


ESPN's rankings/analysis of the Suns players:

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4. Amare Stoudemire, PHO

Scouting report: At his peak, Stoudemire might be the most athletic big man in basketball. His quickness from the high post allows him to blow past defenders with one dribble for a dunk, and his finishing skills around the rim make him a devastating partner for Steve Nash. Stoudemire has never been a great defender and will need to work on that area in coming seasons.

2006-07 outlook: Stoudemire's productivity level this season is very much an open question at this point. The track record of microfracture surgery patients is mixed at best, although Stoudemire was younger than most others, and his knee reportedly had less damage than most as well. Stoudemire signed a six-year extension for the maximum just prior to going under the knife, so look for the Suns to be patient with his recovery. If he can be back to full strength by midseason, Phoenix has a great shot at winning its first-ever championship.

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15. Shawn Marion, PHO

Scouting report: Where to begin? Marion led the league in double-doubles and ranked in the top three at his position in two major categories -- Rebound Rate and Turnover Ratio. Despite standing 6-7 and appearing at least 10 pounds lighter than his listed weight of 228, Marion controlled the defensive glass for a club that was badly outmanned inside. His Defensive Rebound Rate of 23.6 ranked first among small forwards and would have cracked the top 10 even at power forward.

He was also able to pump in over 20 points a game while hardly ever making a miscue. Marion's Turnover Ratio of 7.1 ranked 11th overall and third among small forwards. Combined with his 59.1 percent True Shooting, Marion was as efficient an offensive player as there was in the league. That's how he was able to score so much despite a middling Usage Rate -- basically, he didn't get the ball more than anyone else, he just did a whole lot more with it once he got a chance.

Marion is at his best in transition, where Nash repeatedly finds him for easy dunks, but he's also a threat in the halfcourt. He has a weird rainbow jump shot that he shoots with his elbow pointing to the side, but it's proven to be accurate. Marion has hit over 80 percent from the line every year in the league, and is a career 34.6 percent shooter on 3-pointers. When he does put the ball on the floor, he almost always goes left and springs up for a jumper after one or two dribbles.

The one weakness in Marion's game is passing. When he gets the ball, it's almost always with the goal of shooting it. His Assist Ratio ranked only 58th among the league's 64 small forwards.

2006-07 outlook: He's coming off a career year, he's 28, and he had trouble with his knee over the summer that caused him to pull out of the World Championships. All of these are trouble signs, so he'll probably come down a notch from his performance a year ago. The projections see his field-goal percentage dipping, and that's a reasonable bet considering it was 45 percentage points higher than he'd ever shot before. But if the other numbers hold up, Marion should again be one of the league's premier small forwards.

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19. Steve Nash, PHO

Scouting report: Nash is a deadly shooter, a brilliant passer and one of the best weak-hand players ever. Because of the passing-shooting combo, he's probably the best pick-and-roll weapon in basketball.

His shooting is particularly underrated. For all the talk of his magical passing, Nash may be the best shooter in the game. Last year he was only the fourth payer in history to go 50-40-90 -- shooting over 50 percent from the floor, 40 percent on 3-pointers, and 90 percent from the free-throw line. The only others do it were Larry Bird, Mark Price and Reggie Miller. As a result, he nearly led the league in TS% -- you'll never guess who beat him out.

Nash is about the last person on earth you'd want to challenge in a game of H-O-R-S-E. In addition to all the running hook shots with either hand, of late Nash has added the statue-of-liberty lay-up to his repertoire, holding the ball out with one hand to keep it away from the defender as he passes en route to the rim. Nash has also perfected a move near the basket where he drives left and then jumps almost straight backwards, shooting the ball with his body angled 45 degrees or more and usually falling on his butt as the ball caroms in off the glass.

His weak hand is another subtle aspect of his play. Nash plays almost as a left-handed player at times, flipping shots up with it off one hand and frequently firing one-handed passes lefty -- a skill rarely seen even at this level. Nash ranked only fourth at his position in Assist Ratio, believe it or not, because he spent nearly as much time scoring as he did dishing. But even with the added responsibility he was a close third in Pure Point Ratio, barely losing out to Brevin Knight and Chauncey Billups.

2006-07 season: The Suns have some mild concerns about wearing Nash out when it matters most, particularly given his helter-skelter style. He's 32 and played a career-high 35.4 minutes per game last year, and seemed to run of gas in the postseason, including a major shooting slump in the second round against the Clippers.

As a result, the Suns signed Marcus Banks in the offseason to ease some of the regular-season strain on their chief orchestrator. Look for Nash's minutes to average closer to 32 or so during the regular season, which would dial back some of his per-game averages and could cost him a third straight assist title.

He's also projected for a modest drop-off statistically, which we'd expect from anybody who had a career year at 31. But the good news here is that big point guards who can shoot historically have aged very well -- including his most similar player and rival for Pacific Division supremacy, Sam Cassell.

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109. Leandro Barbosa, PHO

Scouting report: Barbosa is as fast with the ball as any player in the league, especially going to his left. He loves to bring the ball up the left side of the court and then blaze to the hoop for a lay-up. He badly needs to learn how to make a left-handed lay-up, though, as he almost always finishes at the basket with his right hand despite normally coming in from the left side. This makes him a less effective finisher than he might be, but his speed is so devastating that he still gets plenty of easy baskets.

His 3-point performance was more surprising. Barbosa has unusual delivery on his shot, holding his arms well in front of his body and having a low release point. However, he rarely shoots his jumper off the dribble or with a man in his face -- nearly all his 3-pointers were on spot-ups off Steve Nash's penetration. When he didn't shoot a 3, he went right to the rim.

Defensively, Barbosa has great anticipation for steals, but his on-ball and help defense leave a lot to be desired. The Suns were 6.7 points worse per 100 possessions when Barbosa was on the court, a glaringly large differential. Barbosa gets destroyed in size match-ups because of his lack of strength, which on some nights makes it hard to find minutes for him at the off guard spot. The best thing for him would be to be paired with an oversized point guard like Jason Kidd or Baron Davis who could cover for him against bigger guards, but that's not going to happen on this team.

2006-07 outlook: Phoenix signed Barbosa to a five-year, $33 million extension before the season started, ending speculation that the Suns might be forced to let him go due to luxury tax constraints. Based on his explosive performances in the postseason, Barbosa should again be the Suns' top bench performer and has stamped himself as an early contender for the league's Sixth Man award.

Statistically, we shouldn't expect Barbosa to shoot 44 percent from downtown again, but his other numbers should gently increase as he learns how to take advantage of his scintillating speed. Best of all, Barbosa won't turn 24 until November, so he still has plenty of room to expand his game. That five-year extension could end up being a bargain.

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113. Boris Diaw, PHO

Scouting report: Everything about Diaw is a little weird and unorthodox, which may explain why it took a little longer for him to get his footing in the NBA. He makes herky-jerky moves to the basket and, like a lot of European players, tends to takes liberties with his pivot feet on the way to the rim.

He'll also do bizarre things en route to the basket. He still has a tendency to avoid going up strong or pass up shots, so sometimes he' ll do a little flip shot when he should dunk it or pass the ball out to the 3-point line when it seems he has a lay-up. And because of his inexperience, he' ll occasionally do some truly bizarre stuff -- my favorite was when he started running up and down the sideline while trying to throw a side inbounds pass when he was a Hawk.

Diaw has improved greatly in those areas, though, and he has a deadly first step that he uses to blast past opposing big men, especially going to his right. He and Shawn Marion also teamed to destroy opponents on a play I rarely see other teams run -- a pick-and-roll set for a player catching the ball in the high post. As weird as it looked, more often than not it ended with Diaw taking one dribble to his right and firing a lob pass to a rolling Marion for a dunk.

On the down side, Diaw isn' t a great shooter, with a line-drive release and shaky confidence. He also doesn't rebound well enough for an inside player, but because the Suns get strong board work from small forward Shawn Marion and center Kurt Thomas it wasn't as glaring an issue.

2006-07 outlook: Is he still on the rise or is he headed back to Earth? The Suns coaches insist that Diaw is still scratching the surface of his potential, and it isn't hard to tick off areas where he could easily take a step forward. On the other hand, it's possible the 52.6 percent shooting was an outlier. Additionally, he may run into problems if the Suns are working a healthy Amare Stoudemire back into the mix -- both are at their best playing from the high post in the Suns' floor-spreading offense, and it's unclear how things would work with both on the court at the same time.

These are important considerations because the Suns need to ink Diaw to an extension this summer before he hits restricted free agency. But in the bigger picture, it's hard not to be excited about his future. Even if he took a slight step back this season, the Suns would have themselves a 24-year-old forward with plenty of upside remaining to explore.

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172. Marcus Banks, PHO

Scouting report: By now the book on Banks is fairly well known. He's basically a poor man's Robert Pack -- a great penetrator who often has no idea what to do once he gets there. As a result, he tends to be a turnover machine. Banks ranked 56th among point guards in Turnover Ratio last year, a number which has been stubbornly high his entire career.

There may be a solution here. Banks has a decent outside shot, hitting 33.7 percent on 3-pointers for his career and 76.6 percent from the line, and should learn to utilize it more rather than constantly depending on his quickness. Barely a tenth of his shots were 3-pointers a year ago, but mixing in perimeter shots will help reduce his turnover total and also open more lanes for his drives.

Defensively, he has great quickness and strength and is absolutely amazing pressuring the ball upcourt defensively, but the cost is a high foul rate for a guard. He toned that down a year ago, at a cost to his once-awesome steals rate, but still has room to go. His strength also makes him difficult to post up in the halfcourt, and as he gains experience it's easy to imagine him becoming one of the game's best defensive point guards.

2006-07 outlook: Banks signed a five-year, $21 million with Phoenix in the offseason, where he becomes the understudy to Steve Nash. It should be a great fit for Banks, who is at his best pushing the ball in the open court but struggles in a halfcourt environment. For that reason alone, his numbers might show a slight improvement this season, but don't expect any tectonic shifts. Banks will be a quality backup and perhaps a defensive spark, but until he cuts down the turnovers he's not quite ready for prime time.

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187. James Jones, PHO

Scouting report: Besides shooting, Jones' other skill is defense. He was often the biggest player on the floor for the Suns last season and had to defend multiple positions, especially after the injury to Kurt Thomas. Although he was overmatched in the paint, he did well against small forwards, his natural position. Jones isn't a great leaper but has a knack for shot-blocking, sending back six in a playoff game against Dallas and averaging nearly one per contest for the season. Jones is a very poor rebounder, however, which is puzzling considering his solid build.

Jones used his time in Indiana to copy Reggie Miller's leg-kick move when releasing a 3-pointer. Basically, this involves reaching a leg out as a defender flies by to challenge a jumper and baiting the official into calling a foul. He's not as adept with it as Reggie was, thank goodness, but I'm waiting for the day an official with some stones calls an offensive foul on the shooter for this tactic, since Jones is basically deliberately kicking a defender.

2006-07 outlook: Jones' role isn't likely to change much this season, and the projections say the results won't shift much either. Healthy returns by Stoudemire and Thomas would be great news for him, because it would allow him to play his natural small forward position and worry less about defending in the paint and rebounding. If so, look for him to back up both forward spots and see about 20 minutes an night behind Shawn Marion and Boris Diaw.

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213. Kurt Thomas, PHO

Scouting report: Thomas is way undersized for a center but makes up for it by moving his feet and playing with a great deal of intensity. Thomas also rebounds well, especially defensively -- he ranked 12th among centers in Defensive Rebound Rate despite his small stature.

Thomas hasn't had a post play called for him in eons and probably wouldn't know where he was anyway, so rarely does he venture down low. He prefers to shoot mid-range jumpers from the elbows or the baseline, and is one of the few big men who does it accurately enough to post a decent TS% with this playing style. It also keeps the turnovers down -- he ranked eighth among centers in Turnover Ratio, and that was an off-year by his standards. On the flip side, he almost never gets to the line or creates shots for others.

2006-07 outlook: Thomas could be in for a tough adjustment, as he is the one player who stands to lose the most playing time with the return of Amare Stoudemire. Phoenix's original blueprint called for the two to start alongside one another, but Boris Diaw's emergence makes that all but impossible now. Additionally, Thomas will be 34 on opening day and his play is gently slipping, so transitioning to a bench role might be better all around. But his role may increase sharply in the postseason, when the Suns will count on him against the Tim Duncans and Dirk Nowitzkis of the world.

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216. Raja Bell, PHO

Scouting report: While the shooting was nice, Bell's defensive impact was the real difference-maker for Phoenix last year. The Suns hadn't had a defensive stopper on the wings until he arrived, and the result was a much-improved Suns defensive squad up until the injury to Kurt Thomas.

Bell isn't particularly long or athletic, but he's a feisty defender who moves his feet well and competes like crazy. That's best seen in the insane amount of offensive fouls he drew -- some on charges, but many on push-offs by frustrated opponents. The NBA doesn't keep this as an official stat (and again, I must ask: Why?), but an unofficial analysis by 82games.com had him leading the league in offensive fouls drawn by a wide margin. Sometimes Bell's spirited play crosses the line, however, as when he clotheslined Kobe Bryant near the end of Game 5 against the Lakers.

Offensively, Bell is pretty much a catch-and-shoot player, although he will occasionally fire a jumper off the dribble, especially going to his left. He doesn't look to go the basket much -- only three shooting guards had a worse ratio than Bell's 0.16 free-throw attempts per field-goal attempt, which is a shame since Bell is a good free-thow shooter.

One area Bell could pick up is his rebounding. The Suns aren't a strong team on the glass, and Bell's paltry 4.7 Rebound Rate didn't help matters any. It ranked 53rd among the league's 58th shooting guards and was easily the worst mark of Bell's career.

2006-07 outlook: Bell is a pretty safe bet to match his production from a year ago. Jump-shooters in their late 20s don't normally go belly up out of the blue, and even if his 3-point percentage dips a little from a year ago one imagines his Rebound Rate will, um, rebound and make up for it. Expect Bell to again hold down the starting job as the Suns' defensive stopper while the razzle-dazzle show buzzes around him.

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222. Jumaine Jones, PHO

Scouting report: Jones is a tweener but he's more comfortable at small forward, where he can hang out in the corner waiting for 3-point chances and use his size to work the defensive glass. However, he doesn't move particularly well and has trouble defending quicker players. He's often used as an undersized power forward and probably will play that way in Phoenix. From that slot he finds it easier to get free for his jumpers, but his lack of size is problematic underneath. He's a poor ballhandler and a mediocre athlete, so most of his shots are long jumpers, which keeps his field-goal percentage down.

Jones' defensive numbers were terrible, but take them with a grain of salt. He faced impossible size mismatches on many nights that would never have happened on a team that had more competent big men on hand. He won't seem nearly as overmatched on a Phoenix team that can offer better protection.

2006-07 outlook: Jones signed a one-year deal with Phoenix for the veteran's minimum, and at that price he's a screaming bargain. Jones gives the Suns yet another combo forward who can stretch defenses, and his rebounding will come in handy on a team that struggled on the glass. The only concern is whether Phoenix's running style will leave him in the dust.

Of course, his basketball impact will pale in comparison to his impact on the league's TV coverage, because the "Is that Jumaine Jones or James Jones?" phenomenon just ascended to another level.

They both are 6-8 and like to shoot 3-pointers from the corner. Announcers couldn't keep them straight even when they were on different teams. What, pray tell, will happen now? The Suns were already the league's most entertaining team, but now they've unwittingly raised their TV appeal even more.
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Post by Winnow »

Want to see why a healthy Amare will make a difference?

Watch this video of Amare vs Duncan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlofxkWfRM0

This is all Amare vs Duncan in one quarter with the game on the line.
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Post by Kelshara »

Problem is: He isn't healthy. He was quoted as experiencing sharp pains in his knee. We shall see how a long, hard season will be handled.
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Post by Winnow »

Kelshara wrote:Problem is: He isn't healthy. He was quoted as experiencing sharp pains in his knee. We shall see how a long, hard season will be handled.
Well here's a little better news after Friday's practice:
After complaining of sharp pain in both knees and a disconnect with team officials over his training schedule on Thursday, Stoudemire had a Friday morning meeting with coach/general manager Mike D’Antoni to iron out any perceived inconsistencies.

Then, with Stoudemire’s manager, Rodney Rice, and Suns managing partner Robert Sarver looking on, Stoudemire completed a pain-free practice and moved better than he had in several days. Whatever problems he’d had the day before were “a done deal” and there is now “a great understanding” as to how he will press forward in his return from two knee surgeries.

“I didn’t think there was a problem in the first place,” D’Antoni said. “There are going to be up-and-down days when he looks great and then he looks awful. We just have to keep the communication lines open. He has to tell us if he’s in pain, or if he’s tired.
The Suns don't need Amare until March. They have the same team as last year and by all accounts should win the Pacific Division and have at worst a 3 seed in the West. It looks like Amare may have trouble with back to back games and need an extra day of rest which is fine as long as he's improved some four months from now.

The Suns need him in the playoffs when we play San Antonio and Dallas. They don't need Amare to beat anyone else.

Most people are tagging him for 6th man of the year...think about possible 6th man of the year candidates for Phoenix...Diaw, if Amare moves into the starting lineup, Leandro Barbosa who was a strong candidate last year and has improved, or Amare, if he comes off the bench scoring what he's scoring in the preseason which is basically his dominant stats with less minutes, or Marcus Banks (pg)..because anyone that comes to the Suns in free agency seems to have a career year...Diaw, Tim Thomas, even Eddie House was in the running for 6th man for awhile last year...what that all means though is that the Suns have a bench this year and are going with an nine man rotation with Banks, Amare, Leandro Barbosa and James Jones coming off the bench...not bad at all. (well, it remains to be seen how Banks does but the rest are proven)

Nice backup Suns team:

PG Marcus Banks (backing up 2005, 2006 MVP Nash)
SG Leandro Barbosa (backing up Raja Bell)
SF James Jones (backing up multiple year All-Star Marion)
PF Amare Stoudemire (backing up most improved player of the year Boris Diaw and Kurt Thomas)

The only player who needs to backup more than one player is Amare, who is potentially one of the top players in the league and has been for reserve type minutes in the preseason. And if he can't, we all know Marion can play the PF spot and Diaw/K.Thomas can slide to the Center. Marion played PF most of the time last season anyway when K.Thomas went down with Diaw at Center.

And the best news out of camp is how well Kurt Thomas is playing.

Anyways, it should be another entertaining season to watch the Suns with hopefully more power slams this year...Amare did lead the league in slams over Shaq two years ago (or did for awhile, not sure on final stats). So, for entertainment's sake, add his slams the the Nash run, passing, three pointer, fast break show and it's fun for all.
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Post by Leonaerd »

Winnow, can you give us a week without your propaganda? Just a week?
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Post by Kelshara »

Bump?

:twisted:
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Post by Winnow »

Steve Nash, reigning MVP of the NBA the last two years, has even better stats this year so far than the last two years.

Triple Crown?

Got to admit, it will be storybook when the mid-seeded Suns get to the finals after they put it all together at the end of the year!

Nash: Excellent, although he needs to cut down on turnovers. He bounced a couple passes at Amare's knees.

Marion - Excellent (except three pointers, everything else is business as usual for him)

Diaw - Failing Grade

Barbosa - Excellent, dude is playing at an All-Star level atm.

Amare - Passing grade for this point in the season on is comeback. We've seen explosive dunks and multiple power moves under the basket which shows he still has that part of his game. Needs work in transition and defense still.

Jalen Rose: great touch pass to Marion in his first game as a Sun. Looked better than I thought he would. Will be a great veteran help off the bench.

Raja Bell: injured, but wasn't playing his best ball before the two game injury.

Marcus Banks: needs work.

James Jones: No idea. he's not getting much playing time.

Kurt Thomas: doing ok

The major thing I see causing problems is Diaw not getting involved in the game and still being in French pussy non aggressive mode so far. He needs to start driving to the hoop again.
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Post by Animale »

From what I've seen, Diaw needs to get himself off the "All-Eating" NBA team. Looks like he got introduced to donuts in the off-season or found a new favorite flavor of ice-cream that he cannot stop himself from gorging on.

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Post by Kelshara »

And they still haven't learned how to spell "defense".
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Post by Winnow »

Amare's game last night in three quarters:

25 pts, 14 rbs, 2 blks, 1 stl (25 minutes played)

He was a beast last night.

Now, the sad part is that the Suns had a 34 point lead at the end of the third quarter vs the Grizzlies and took out their starters. The Suns only managed to score 7 points with their all backup team and a furious D'Antoni had to bring the starters back into the game with 5 minutes left in the game to stop the madness.

The Suns looked like a whole new team last night though. Very aggressive on the boards and had more than their game average in offensive rebounds before the first quarter was over. Diaw was active in all facets of the game as well.

How about this stat line for Barbosa:

16 pts, 12 assists, 4 stls, 1 blk

Nash only had 9 assists! If Leandro steps up in assists on a permanent basis, he's an All-Star along with Nash, Marion and Amare (when he gets back to form).
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Post by Winnow »

Amare's last three games:

vs. HOU 22pts, 15rbs
@ POR 20 pts, 11rbs
vs. NJN 25pts, 10rbs, 7 blks

Suns have won five in a row and seven of their last eight games.

Amare has looked outstanding. I think the Suns are over their horrible start to the season, much like Dallas had. Diaw is back in shape and aggressive, Barbosa is back from ankle injury and Raja Bell is going nuts with this three point shooting accuracy for some reason.

There's a long way to go before we see if the same team as last year with the addition of Kurt Thomas and Amare inside can push the team past the Western Conference Finals. Sueven thinks the Suns are overrated! I disagree unless he was basing that on Amare not being 100%. What have the other teams in the west done to make you think the Suns are overrated? The Suns added Diaw and bench depth last year but lost BOTH big men in Amare and Kurt Thomas. (just look at the difference in scores/wins after Kurt Thomas went down last year). The Suns made it to the WCF with Diaw as their big man and he was supposed to play backup minutes at the PG position at the beginning of the season. This year you add Thomas and Amare to Diaw and the bench depth in James Jones and a much improved Leandro Barbosa, add Nash, Marion and Bell with a little veteran help on the bench from Jalen Rose and I don't see how you think they are underrated. They made it to the WCF the past two years and have improved their team this year.
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Post by Winnow »

Suns have won seven straight and nine of their last ten games.

Sueven's most overrated team started the season 1-6. They're now 10-6.

If you're going to have a losing streak, you may as well have it right in the beginning of the season while working off all the pasta eaten during their Euro training camp.

Tonight: Phoenix 127 Sacramento 102

Amare 17pts, 13rbs
Marion 23pts, 6rbs
Barbosa 26pts
Nash 11pts, 20 assists

add another ~50 points from the rest of the Suns and you have a well rounded team with scoring from all over the place.

Amare's been a monster on the boards and is averaging 20pts/10rbs in the last five games or so and has been his old self with a combination of super quick dunks, power dunks and finese hoops around the basket. Add that to Marion's ~20/10 average, throw in a little mad scoring from Barbosa and Bell (Bell was one 3 pointer short of a record for consecutive games with four three pointers a game)

Nash had 9 assists after the first quarter and then spread out another 11 over the last three. MVP! MVP!..one more time...MVP!
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Post by Cartalas »

Amare is starting to look good. Phx is starting to look tough again.
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Post by Winnow »

Cartalas wrote:Amare is starting to look good. Phx is starting to look tough again.
The true test during the season for Phoenix will come when they Dallas again. Phoenix plays @Denver on December 20th and @Dallas on December 28th. Those are the telling games in the upcoming weeks. The rest are mostly pansy teams from back east. Besides Dallas, Denver's been looking impressive at least from their record shows. I haven't seen them actually play yet.

In the next week, the Suns play four teams back east; Nets(Thur), Celtics (Fri), Bobcats (Sun) and Magic (Mon).
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Post by Winnow »

Nash is the lead story but there is a list of MVP candidates for this year on NBA.COM's website. Top three are Boozer, Dirk and Dwight Howard.

http://www.nba.com/features/player_rankings_061205.html
December 5, 2006 -- With his unmatched ability to find the open teammate, Steve Nash has made more people smile in Phoenix than the dentist.

Whether it's setting up Shawn Marion for an alley-oop or delivering the perfect entry pass on the block to Amare Stoudemire, Nash always delivers right on time.

Phoenix was the trendy pick this season to reach The Finals. Nash was back at the helm of the league's most explosive offense after becoming one of just 11 players to win the MVP more than once.

And the lineup was expected to get an added boost from Stoudemire, who missed most of the 2005-06 campaign after knee surgery.

But then the Suns got off to a slow start, winning just once in their first six outings, and Nash was sidelined with back spasms.

Was this the season where defenses had finally caught up with Phoenix?

Not at all.

Nash is healthy again, Amare is playing like Amare of old and Phoenix has reclaimed its spot among the game's elite.

The Suns have won six games in a row to move three games above .500. Nash is leading the NBA in assists as usual and he's also averaging a career-best 20.5 points per game.

At this pace, Nash has a chance to be the first player in the league to average 20 points and 10 assists since Tim Hardaway accomplished the feat for the Warriors in 1993.
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Post by Winnow »

o...M...G!

What a great game for the Suns eighth straight win. All I can say is thank heysoos the Suns won it as now they have to play tomorrow after a grueling double OT win instead of a loss.

Phoenix 161 Nets 157 2OT

Some stats for you:

First of all, props to Jason Kidd...amazing game:

Kidd 38 pts, 14 rbs, 14 assists (Tied Wilt the Stilt for #3 all time triple doubles tonight)

Kidd had the edge in stats but Nash hit the big shots in OT to send it to another OT:

Nash 42 pts, 6 rbs, 13 assists (12 pts , 4/4 FGs, 3/3 FTs in OT)
(regular season career high)

Marion 33 pts, 9 rbs, 3 stls, 2 blks (key block in OT)
Diaw 16 pts, 2 blks, 14 assists (Boris was nails in OT and check those assists!)
Amare 23 pts, 11 rbs
Barbosa 16 pts, 7 assists, 2 stls (now all around player that can pass as well as score)

Shame this wasn't the nationally televised game tonight. It was one of the most entertaining games of the year so far and only the second game in the past 11 years to total more than 300 points.

Boston tomorrow should be interesting. Get some sleep team and maybe play some defense tomorrow night!

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/b ... index.html
EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. (AP) -- Two overtimes, 318 points, 34 lead changes, 21 ties and a dramatic showdown between two of the best point guards in the game.

The Phoenix Suns beat the New Jersey 161-157 on Thursday night in a game that was as good as it gets in the NBA.

"I think we can go home and turn on Classic NBA," Suns coach Mike D'Antoni said. "It will be on there already. That's the best game I have ever seen."

Steve Nash scored nine of his career-high 42 points in the second overtime and Boris Diaw hit a go-ahead shot in the lane with 14 seconds left to lead the Suns to their eighth straight victory in the shootout that matched the NBA's fourth-highest points total.

The classic also saw Nets point guard Jason Kidd tie Wilt Chamberlain for third place with 78 career triple-doubles. Kidd finished with 38 points, 14 rebounds and 14 assists, but the point guard dribbled the ball off his foot with 10 seconds left, costing the Nets a chance to tie.
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Post by Winnow »

Nothing too exciting here but the Suns had enough stamina to pull out back to back road wins after the 161 point performance on Thursday for their ninth straight win.

(12-6) Phoenix 116 Boston 111

Nash 16 pts, 14 assists
Marion 29 pts, 12 rbs
Diaw 14 pts, 6 rbs, 7 assists, 2 blks (always helping one way or atoher)
Kurt Thomas 10 pts, 11 rbs (doesn't get mentioned much so here he is filling in for foul troubled Amare this game)

another 9 assists combined from Barbosa and Raja Bell

This team is extremely unselfish.

Two more road games and then home vs Miami next Wednesday on ESPN. Mark your calendars!
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Post by Zamtuk »

Seriously can you not post on this thread. 15 out of 22 posts in this thread are from you (23 counting this) including 7 of the last 8. Does sitting in your house discussing Suns basketball with yourself get that boring where you have to do it here, in front of everyone else? I could understand if you were striking up rousing debates and discussions but you are doing nothing but recapping the past few Suns games. (note: notice how you started back up when they went on a hot streak) If I wanted this information I would go to espn.com and not have to worry about coming here to get my in depth statistics with stupid commentary to accompany them.
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Post by Winnow »

Shouldn't you be taking a course on how mp3's work so your family doesn't think you're retarded?

Note: Don't stress about my post count on this thread. It's going to be high and I could care less if my post count ended up 100/100 and I was the only one reading it. If you haven't learned that much over the past two years of Suns threads then you've got even less going on upstairs than I thought.

Also: I will post less when the Suns are losing and more when they win. I'm a Suns fanboi. hello? you listening? I post a lot about the Suns and more when they are winning. I am a Suns fanboi. hello? get it? Christ, did 400 Suns posts over the past two years not give you a fucking a hint?

Skip the thread or keep whining. Either's ok. I'm not looking to convert anyone and don't care if I drive people away from being a Suns fan. If people are stupid enough to base their opinion of the Suns on a fan's rantings instead of watching the (35 nationally televised!) games, they should be eliminated from the human gene pool.

Sincerely,

16/25 (you miscounted)
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Post by Zamtuk »

The only difference between this thread and the past two Suns threads are that people actually posted in them. As said earlier, if actual discussion took place, I wouldn't care, hell, I'd probably contribute. But there isn't any discussion at all taking place. Just you doing your best Sportscenter impression. I mean, wow, thats really fucking cool you can post stats and pictures under the same post. Thats really neat.
Shouldn't you be taking a course on how mp3's work so your family doesn't think you're retarded?
Not sure what this is supposed to mean or if it is even supposed to be funny, though I can see you laughing out loud for a good 5 minutes while you typed it out. At least you got the joke!
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Post by Winnow »

Zamtuk wrote:The only difference between this thread and the past two Suns threads are that people actually posted in them. As said earlier, if actual discussion took place, I wouldn't care, hell, I'd probably contribute. But there isn't any discussion at all taking place. Just you doing your best Sportscenter impression. I mean, wow, thats really fucking cool you can post stats and pictures under the same post. Thats really neat.
Dude, there is ZERO NBA discussion taking place on this board atm besides this thread where I'm talking mostly to myself although Cart stops by once in awhile! When the College Bowl season ends and the second half of the NBA season rolls around, people might want to start talking pro hoops. I understand that the NBA isn't the primary sport on people's minds atm for the most part.

What's new about my stat posting? Been doing that for years here. I understand that two years ago it was more fun for me as people doubted Nash and the Suns were coming off a very bad season and made it to the WCF. Then last year Amare went down which made it fun because the Suns were written off again or harrassed for their style of play and Nash picked up the second MVP along with a trip back to the WCF. This year I don't expect much discussion because the Suns are picked to win it all this year by some or to make it back to where they were again last year for minimum expectations. People are now aware that Diaw and Barbosa are good and the Suns will end up with three all stars, another Most Improved Player or Sixth man award and Nash will be in the running for MVP again. The only interesting part is if Phoenix gets to the Championship game and wins. The Suns crank out the other awards like clockwork these past few years.

Sueven stating that the Suns are overrated makes for an interesting sideline as well since the Suns are a favorite to win it all. Phoenix, Dallas or the Spurs will win the Title this year. I guess we won't know until the end of the season as nothing less than winning a championship will make Phoenix overrated. I'm not disagreeing that the Suns should win it all. I'll be disappointed if they don't as they have everything in place for multiple championships (everyone's signed for next year as well and they have a buttload of draft picks in a year the draft is expected to be great) as long as players remain healthy.

Speaking of consistency, the Suns are the only West team to make it to the WCF the past two years while the Mavs and Spurs have each had their one year there and beyond. I can't complain much with Joe Johnson out one (when all they had was five decent players) year and Amare out the next (when Kurt Thomas was also out so no big men).

The best thing about being a Suns fan is that they are always fun to watch throughout the entire season with their entertaining style of play which makes their seasons ending in the WCF's these past two years a little easier to take as they provide great entertainment for the majority of their games.
Shouldn't you be taking a course on how mp3's work so your family doesn't think you're retarded?
Zamtuk wrote:Not sure what this is supposed to mean or if it is even supposed to be funny, though I can see you laughing out loud for a good 5 minutes while you typed it out. At least you got the joke!
You've got to know your audience. In the case of this thread, there is an audience of one that's important atm. Me! I laughed so it's all good.
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Post by Winnow »

(13-6) Phoenix 114 Charlotte 84

Phoenix wins 10th straight by 30 while the starters take the night off. Hopefully it's enough rest to get their fourth straight road win in five days against a tough Magic team tomorrow. :D
By Matthew Gardner | OrlandoMagic.com

Those Phoenix Suns are looking good.

They were a good team last year - and were arguably playing without their best player. And now that Amare Stoudemire is back in the mix and up to speed, look out NBA.

Phoenix was a good team - a darned good team - without Stoudemire last year. They had the two-time MVP Steve Nash, the three-time All-Star Shawn Marion, the Most Improved Player in Boris Diaw. They had rising stars like Raja Bell and Leandro Barbosa. Enough to win 54 games.

But Stoudemire is a beast. He's the Dwight Howard before there was a Dwight Howard in the NBA. Stoudemire averaged 26 ppg in 2004-05 before two knee surgeries washed away his season.

And now that the Phoenix band is back together, they are causing some serious damage around the NBA. They are 13-6 and have won eight straight games - including the first three in their five-game East Coast road trip. They scored 161 points (yeah, I'm not kidding) in a double OT game at New Jersey! The Magic have only scored 169 points in their last two games!

I don't know about you, but Phoenix is one of those teams that I just dread playing. However, I think we have better weapons this year in order to slow them down. The Magic are a better defensive club and I'd be very surprised if Phoenix scores more than 110 points tonight.

Orlando had Sunday off to rest and that's a good thing, because the team is going to have to be on all cylinders in order to slow down the red-hot Suns.
Kinda of funny seeing someone mention defense and holding a team under 110. That's the way the Suns are though. During their win streak, the other team has had various players with record high scores.

I didn't know Grant Hill was back and playing so well. That's awesome. I look forward to seeing him in action against the Suns tonight. He's got the Marion all around type game and would have been a Hall of Famer if he didn't have the tragic series of medical problems.
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Post by Winnow »

The Magic was able to hold the Suns under 110. Nice nice.

(14-6) Phoenix 103 (15-8 ) Orlando 89

Amare vs Dwight Howard

Amare 30 pts, 8 rbs 3 blks
Howard 4 pts, 3 rbs, fouled out

Nash 18 pts, 15 assists

Orlando kept it within 2 pts at half but scored 14 pts vs the Suns' 30 in the 3rd qtr

The Suns are 51-14 vs East Coast teams over the past few seasons.

11 straight wins and four out of five so far on their five game east coast road trip. Miami's next on Wednesday. Orlando was scrappy. They just need to mature some as a team. Grant Hill looked pretty good considering what he's been through.

The Suns don't seem overrated to me.
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Post by Winnow »

This week's power rankings has the Suns back in the #1 spot at EPSN and Sports Illustrated. After beginning the year there they dropped as low as #21 in one "power ranking".

These mean little (well nothing at all really) but it's interesting to note that the top four teams on CNNSI are West Coast and the Top Five teams on ESPN's are West Coast. The East is hurting. The Pistons took a step back this year, the Heat are old and really hurting w/out Shaq and no other team's stepped up. Maybe by the end of the year the Bulls will start coming together. Currently it sounds like they've got chemistry issues though.

CNNSI:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/w ... index.html

ESPN

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/powerrank ... 007&week=6

A check of the standings in the NBA shows the ugly disparity in records between the East and West as a whole:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/standings

Check the Atlantic Division. The best record is 8-12. Ouch.

I think there will be an active trade season during this year.
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Post by Winnow »

Im not an ESPN Insider so can't read the whole article. Here's what I could see:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/ ... 3dtab2pos2
Why we were wrong about Steve Nash

By John Hollinger
ESPN Insider

Mark Cuban was wrong, and so was I.

In July 2004, when Steve Nash got a six-year, $65 million offer from the Phoenix Suns, Cuban thought it would be a mistake to match it. That was because he thought Nash, as a 29-year-old player at a position where players tend to decline quickly with age, would be unlikely to provide value commensurate with that salary, something Cuban outlined in incredible detail on his blog:

"I said ... that if another team came in and paid him a max-like deal, what I called an extreme deal, outside the norm, then he would have to take it," he wrote then. (When I emailed Cuban to ask if he had any further comment, he said, "It's all in the blog.")

I used similar logic in chiding the move. At the time I wrote, "The Suns took a huge risk in giving him five guaranteed years and part of a sixth. At the end of his contract, he'll be 35, making well over $10 million a year, and probably won't be more than a bit player."

Well, we all know how the rest went.

Nash won consecutive MVP awards and helped the Suns become instant contenders. This year, he's been even better.

In addition to his perennially league-leading assist total, Nash is shooting 52.8 percent from the floor, 48.8 percent on 3-pointers and 90.8 percent from the line, producing an insane 65.5 true shooting percentage.

The net result is that at the age of 32, Nash's player efficiency rating (PER) of 24.75 through Tuesday is easily the highest of his career.

As such, Nash's career arc is highly unusual. We say "arc" because it's supposed to go down eventually, but with Nash it's been pretty much straight up. He's been better as a Sun in his 30s than he was as a Mav in his 20s, and his stock has steadily risen throughout his career -- this year would be the sixth time in 11 pro seasons that he has set a career best in PER.

And if he keeps this up for a couple more years, he'll go down as the best post-30-year-old point guard of all time.

To understand how incredibly rare it is for a point guard to play this well at Nash's age, consider the daunting list of men who were out of the league by age 32 -- a list that includes Magic Johnson, Kevin Johnson, Phil Ford and Norm Van Lier.

Those are just the ones who were gone entirely -- the list of guards who were diminished is considerably longer. Isiah Thomas and Pete Maravich played their final seasons at 32; while Clyde Frazier, Fat Lever, Tiny Archibald and Mark Price were mere whispers of their former selves by this age. And these are the stars -- the list gets much more depressing if you look at the league's rank and file.

So of all the point guards to defy the odds, why Nash?

To continue reading this article you must be an Insider.
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Post by Boogahz »

How old was John Stockton when he left the league? He was still doing pretty well in Utah in the later years, even if he only dished to Karl Malone the majority of the time. He wasn't doing as well as Nash is, but the point of the article was just about players at that age.
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Post by Winnow »

Boogahz wrote:How old was John Stockton when he left the league? He was still doing pretty well in Utah in the later years, even if he only dished to Karl Malone the majority of the time. He wasn't doing as well as Nash is, but the point of the article was just about players at that age.
Yeah, Stockton was the first person I thought of. His best stats came at an earlier age than Nash but his stats at the same age weren't bad at all. Stockton would be one of the exceptions to this guy's point that stats decline after age 30. (even though Stockton's did decline but were still good)

Stockton's Season by Season Stats:

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/john_stockton/index.html
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Post by Sueven »

John Stockton was also a freak. There are very, very few athletes, in any sport, who have played at such a high level for such a long time.
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Post by Winnow »

I think the Suns were falling asleep the last quarter of the game tonight.

(15-6) Phoenix 99 Miami 88

Quarter scoring breakdown

26 30 28 15 Suns
19 21 23 26 Heat

The Suns were outscored 22-2 at one point in the 4th quarter. Nice to have the kind of lead that it only brought the Heat within eight points of tying the Suns even with that kind of breakdown on the road to their 12th straight win. (14-1 over their last 15 games)

The Suns were in control the whole game with the exception of getting lulled into boredom near the end of the game.

Golden State at home on Friday and Sacramento away stand in their way of tying their franchise record winning streak (14). Then comes home vs Toronto and the first tough game next Wednesday away at Denver.

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Post by Kilap »

Full story.
Mark Cuban was wrong, and so was I.

In July 2004, when Steve Nash got a six-year, $65 million offer from the Phoenix Suns, Cuban thought it would be a mistake to match it. That was because he thought Nash, as a 29-year-old player at a position where players tend to decline quickly with age, would be unlikely to provide value commensurate with that salary, something Cuban outlined in incredible detail on his blog:

"I said ... that if another team came in and paid him a max-like deal, what I called an extreme deal, outside the norm, then he would have to take it," he wrote then. (When I emailed Cuban to ask if he had any further comment, he said, "It's all in the blog.")

I used similar logic in chiding the move. At the time I wrote, "The Suns took a huge risk in giving him five guaranteed years and part of a sixth. At the end of his contract, he'll be 35, making well over $10 million a year, and probably won't be more than a bit player."

Well, we all know how the rest went.

Nash won consecutive MVP awards and helped the Suns become instant contenders. This year, he's been even better.

In addition to his perennially league-leading assist total, Nash is shooting 52.8 percent from the floor, 48.8 percent on 3-pointers and 90.8 percent from the line, producing an insane 65.5 true shooting percentage.

The net result is that at the age of 32, Nash's player efficiency rating (PER) of 24.75 through Tuesday is easily the highest of his career.

As such, Nash's career arc is highly unusual. We say "arc" because it's supposed to go down eventually, but with Nash it's been pretty much straight up. He's been better as a Sun in his 30s than he was as a Mav in his 20s, and his stock has steadily risen throughout his career -- this year would be the sixth time in 11 pro seasons that he has set a career best in PER.

And if he keeps this up for a couple more years, he'll go down as the best post-30-year-old point guard of all time.

To understand how incredibly rare it is for a point guard to play this well at Nash's age, consider the daunting list of men who were out of the league by age 32 -- a list that includes Magic Johnson, Kevin Johnson, Phil Ford and Norm Van Lier.

Those are just the ones who were gone entirely -- the list of guards who were diminished is considerably longer. Isiah Thomas and Pete Maravich played their final seasons at 32; while Clyde Frazier, Fat Lever, Tiny Archibald and Mark Price were mere whispers of their former selves by this age. And these are the stars -- the list gets much more depressing if you look at the league's rank and file.

So of all the point guards to defy the odds, why Nash?

For starters, if you just look at "NBA point guards" rather than NBA point guards with the specific subsets of skills that Nash possessed when he left Dallas, you'll get a much different forecast.

While it's true that point guards in general begin to deteriorate at a relatively young age, a different picture emerges if you compare the ones who last against the ones who don't.

It turns out there are several important considerations impacting longevity at this position.

The first, obviously, is health -- Magic retired due to HIV, Price had two serious knee injuries and KJ suffered almost every ailment under the sun.

Nash has been fortunate in this respect, as his lone major physical problem is a back issue that has yet to significantly hamper his production.

But beyond that, four other factors should have told us that Nash was likely to outperform the historical trend.

I mentioned two of them when I discussed Nash in 2004 and said, "As a bigger point guard who has a stellar jump shot to fall back on, he figures to age more gracefully than some of his counterparts at the position." Turns out I understated things considerably.

Additionally, there's one other trait I didn't recognize at the time -- passing ability -- that has had a profound effect on point-guard longevity and which Nash has in spades.

If you look at all the point guards who have aged unusually well, they have at least two of those three traits. In fact, the prototype for Nash is a player who is still effective even at age 37, Sam Cassell.

Cassell is listed at 6-3 like Nash, and like Nash is an incredibly accurate shooter. Thus, two of his most important attributes were unlikely to diminish much with age. Compare that to a player like Robert Pack or KJ, who was dependent on his jets, and it's understandable why Cassell and Nash have aged better.

The fourth factor is a distinction of eras. In the past decade, considerably more players of this size have been able to play effectively into their 30s than we saw previously. Medical and conditioning advances played a big role, as injuries that once would have been career-ending or career-altering are now just bugs on the windshield -- Jason Kidd and John Stockton both had microfracture knee surgery, for instance, which would have been career-ruining in an earlier time. Another factor is the incentive offered by bigger contracts -- it doesn't take an advanced economics degree to figure out that players have a much stronger financial carrot for staying in shape these days.

As a result, nearly every effective post-30 point guard has emerged in the past decade:

Stockton. While his five-year run from ages 25 to 29 was unquestionably the best stretch of his career, offensively he was a reasonable facsimile of that player even in his final season -- when he was 40 years old. At 6-1, he wasn't as big as most other point guards who have aged well, but he was a fantastic shooter and an astounding passer, so he had two of the three key traits. He also stayed in ridiculously good shape, and one suspects he could have played till he was 50 if he had been interested in doing so.

Kidd. Statistically, he had two stellar seasons in 1998-99 and 2002-03 at ages 25 and 29 (but neither was the year that he nearly won the MVP -- don't get me started on this), but outside of those years his best play has come in the last three-plus seasons. He turns 34 in March but statistically has not dropped off an inch since he turned 30. He doesn't quite fit the "good shooter" mold, but as a great passer and a huge guard (6-4), he has the prerequisites to age well.

Mark Jackson. He had his two best seasons in his early 20s as a Knick, but for sustained excellence his mid-30s might be his most impressive stretch. From the ages of 32 to 34, he put together the best three-year run of his career as an Indiana Pacer, and he played effectively through the 2001-02 campaign -- at the end of which he was 37 years old. That's fairly remarkable considering he made only one All-Star team even in his prime. As with Kidd, he wasn't a shooter, but he was big and an incredible passer.

Gary Payton. Payton won a Defensive Player of the Year award in his 20s, but statistically his best season came at age 31, and in terms of PER his next three best seasons came at 30, 33 and 32. He didn't show any diminishment in skill until age 35, and he stayed good enough to play prominent roles on NBA finalists in two of the past three seasons. He's a shadow of that player now, but he's also 38. Taken as a whole, his 30s have been considerably better than his 20s.

Cassell. Cassell might be the most extreme example of a player improving statistically very late in the day. If Payton's 30s were better than his 20s, Cassell's 30s have been much better than his 20s. In terms of PER, his three best campaigns came with Milwaukee and Minnesota from the ages of 32 to 34 -- when he set a career best each season. He didn't make his first All-Star team until he was 34, and even at 37 he remains an extremely effective player (while his minutes are way down this year, his per-minute stats haven't budged).

Yet even among these peers, Nash is something of a freak, especially if he keeps up his numbers this season. It would be pretty much unprecedented for a point guard of any stripe to have his best season at age 32 -- Cassell, who did so at 34, is the only example out there. And Nash also is on pace to have the greatest difference between his best post-30 season and his best pre-30 season, with his pre-30 best of 22.60 falling more than two points short of what he's doing this season.

If Nash maintains his production the rest of the way, we can legitimately start asking if he's the best post-30 point guard of all time. He's still got some serious competition right now -- Stockton did it for much longer, obviously, and Cassell arguably has a more jarring difference between his 30s and 20s. But no point guard this old has maintained a PER above 24 for a full season, and only Cassell has set career bests at such an advanced age. Moreover, Nash is an "old" 32 -- he turns 33 in early February, so he's only a month off the cut-off I used for this study.

Interestingly enough, most of the players who have aged the best got their careers off to very slow NBA starts.

Stockton spent three years as a backup because he couldn't beat out Rickey Green. Nash was a third-string point guard in his first go-round in Phoenix and was booed lustily in his first two years in Dallas. Cassell won two rings in Houston but was a backup there; he didn't play 2,000 minutes in a season until he was 28. And Payton, of course, was a rookie disaster when he came to Seattle as the second overall pick.

But to make a long story short, that's how Cuban and I both ended up wrong. The changing circumstances of age distribution in the NBA in general, along with an underappreciation of the specific skills shared by point guards who aged well, helped lead Dallas to a decision that it almost certainly regrets (even if the Mavs won't publicly admit it). That Nash took it a step further and may end up outdoing every post-30 point guard in history only adds to their misery.

Of course, it isn't breaking news that Dallas erred in letting Nash go. But I bring up that bit of info now because there's one more thing to ponder when looking at Nash -- the future. Smart teams will take what we've learned from the likes of Cassell, Nash and Payton and apply it to their next free-agent decisions.

For instance, let's say there was a free-agent point guard, whom we'll call "Chauncey," and let's say he was going to turn 31 in September but was coming off the two best seasons, PER-wise, of his career.

Now, if this hypothetical player were 6-3 and an outstanding shooter, and his blossoming had come after his career got off to a rocky start, would you be willing to bet that he'd age fairly well compared to his peers, based on the examples in this column? And if so, wouldn't you be more likely to offer a richer deal than you might have before you started reading?

Because in retrospect, Nash's contract wasn't a stretch by Phoenix -- in fact, it's a screaming bargain. He's on his third year of stellar play out of the five that are fully guaranteed, so barring injury the Suns are going to win this gamble in a big, big way.

While we're admiring Nash's immunity to the aging process, the lesson to be learned is that we need to look at big guards who can pass and shoot differently than other players at their position, because historically their careers have taken much different paths.
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Post by Winnow »

Thanks for the full story : )
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Post by Winnow »

(16-6) Phoenix 105 Golden State 101 (13th straight win)

I think the Suns got a little soft playing all those east coast teams and forgot they had to pay attention tonight to pick up the win.

Overall, the Suns had a rough night BUT!!! a few standouts...

Amare 25 pts, 10 rbs, 2 blks
Marion 14 pts, 10 rbs, 3 blks, 2 stls
Diaw 21 pts, 14 rbs, 10 assists (The trade throw-in's 5th triple double as a Sun)

Nice front court! Two All Stars and that triple double guy.

Who's in the Back court? 2xMVP and Bell/Barbosa

Oi!

Seriously though. If Boris Diaw decides to go strong to the hoop again like he did tonight, he's an All Star whether he is recognized for it or not. Boris is one of the nicest/cool guys in the league as well if you haven't seen interviews or had a chance to see him off court. Super laid back personality but he's got Spiderman-like senses on the court.

Suns had to work hard for this win tonight. It's going to be a tough game in Sacramento tomorrow if they're going to tie their franchise record 14 game winning streak.
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Post by Winnow »

(17-6) Phoenix 105 Sacramento 98 (Suns win 14th straight 16-1 last 17)

14 pts Marion
12 pts Diaw 6 assists
20 pts Amare 9 rbs (missed a 20/10...he must not be healthy!)
15 pts Bell
16 pts Nash 12 assists
18 pts Barbosa
10 pts K. Thomas

Any team that has seven players in double figures with that kind of point distribution has got to be overrated! I mean...just guard the scorers! Wow, they seem to distribute the ball ok with Nash.,..maybe shut him down? Nope! Diaw is a superfreak big man ball disher...oh, and Nash is one of the best shooters in the league so making him a scorer instead of passer isn't going to help.

Oh, and Amare and K.Thomas are healthy this year...Phoenix actually have big men. Amare is a beast on the boards so Marion has been able to break away for a cherry pick dunkfest.

Lets take a closer look at their win streak. First, direct your attention to the Assist column. Notice how many times that Nash isn't the leading assist man? (look for the color yellow) Diaw and Barbosa are just fine dishing the ball when Nash is being quintuple teamed.

Next, take a look at the green. For those that don't think Amare is back, check how many times he's lead the team in rebounds. He's also not doing too shabby scoring the ball and in the blocks category. He's back.

Check the first five games of that list...five games, five different high scorers.

Finally notice the single loss in OT @ Utah. They pull that one out and we're talking about a 17 game win streak right now.

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Suns upcoming possible win streak schedule:

15th vs Toronto
16th @ Denver (Den/NY brawl tonight so Carmelo probably won't be in this game)
17th vs Washington
18th vs Portland
19th @ Dallas (Suns winning this one would be huge)

I'm dreaming here, but if the Suns make it past Dallas, they don't play a serious contender until 19 games after that vs San Antonio Feb 1st (at Chicago Jan 2nd is also not to be taken lightly)

Whether they keep their winning streak alive or not, they should be cruising the next few months.
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Post by Winnow »

(18-6) Phoenix 115 Toronto 98 (Suns with 15th straight)

No Suns starters played in the 4th quarter but here's some stats before they left:

Amare 28 pts, 10 rbs (28 minutes)
Nash 15 assists

It's easy to beat the Suns...just stop the scorer:

28 Amare
10 Nash
17 Marion
14 Barbosa
13 Bell
12 Diaw

Only six in double figures tonight...that can't be good...well, they did that in only three quarters of play so I'll cut them some slack.

Iverson and the Nuggets in Denver tomorrow night. I'm hoping the Suns can hang on to the streak for a showdown in Dallas for a chance to tie the best winning streak of the decade.
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Post by Cartalas »

Winnow dont get me wrong I think the streak is very impressive, But much to my surprise the Suns have only beat 1 team in that streak with a winning record ( Orlando)?
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Cartalas wrote:Winnow dont get me wrong I think the streak is very impressive, But much to my surprise the Suns have only beat 1 team in that streak with a winning record ( Orlando)?
I understand that. On top of that, the Suns have been lucky enough to catch several teams without their best players. That will continue tonight with Carmelo and JR Smith out. A streak is a streak though and I'm sure other streaking teams have caught some breaks along the way as well. There have been a couple close games, including the double OT (NBA classic) game @ NJ during this run.

That's why I keep pointing to the Dallas game as the next big game on their schedule. Win or lose, I want to see how the Suns play against them this time. I'll be happy if it's a close game. I'll be pissed and discouraged if the Suns manage to build a monster lead and blow it in the 4th. If that happens, nothing's changed from last year.

If the Suns do make it to 18 straight going into Dallas, the Mavs are going to be hella pumped up that game to take down Phoenix. The last three 11+ game streaks by Phoenix were ended by the Spurs.

---
Looks like the Toronto players are just spectators in this picture. At least the one Toronto player is boxing out his teammate so he doesn't get hurt. : )

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Post by Winnow »

Phoenix @ Denver game postponed tonight:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/b ... index.html

Lame. Three of Denver's players are out and the governer decides to declare a state of emergency? This better not affect the Sun's streak! Now the Suns will have to play Denver at full strength sometime later this year.

The Suns were already in town. Who cares if there would be no fans there.
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Post by Winnow »

(19-7) Phoenix @ (21-7) Dallas - 8PM TNT Tonight

This should be a good game. The two best records in the league. The first time they played this year the two teams were a combined 1-8. Since then, they are a combined 39-6 with a 12 and 15 game winning streaks thrown in there as well.

Go Suns! I hope it's a close game either way.
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Post by Winnow »

Phoenix 99 Dallas 101

Dallas played impressive defense. The Suns fell apart every time they tried to rotate the ball to the right side.

I'm amazed that Phoenix didn't officially lose that game until 1.3 seconds left on the Dirk jumper.

Way too many mistakes by the Suns, many of which were caused by the Mavs playing smarter basketball than most teams. I'm heartened that the Suns kept it close and that the wild scoring runs went both ways but Dallas deserved the win tonight.

Grats Cart!
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Post by Cartalas »

Winnow wrote:Phoenix 99 Dallas 101

Dallas played impressive defense. The Suns fell apart every time they tried to rotate the ball to the right side.

I'm amazed that Phoenix didn't officially lose that game until 1.3 seconds left on the Dirk jumper.

Way too many mistakes by the Suns, many of which were caused by the Mavs playing smarter basketball than most teams. I'm heartened that the Suns kept it close and that the wild scoring runs went both ways but Dallas deserved the win tonight.

Grats Cart!
It was a great game, When Nash fed Amare that Dunk I though oh shit but when Terry made that shot on the other end and got the foul I was jumping for joy.
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Post by Winnow »

Suns win! Suns win! 22-8

The Suns led the Bulls for 1.5 seconds in the entire game. They happened to be the last 1.5 seconds.

Woo!

Heartbreaker for the Bulls. They are definitely the up and coming team in the East.

The Bulls were 14-2 at home before tonight.

It was a horrible game statwise for the Suns and the Bulls did a great job shutting down Nash.

Ok...well there were a few standouts:

Amare 24 pts, 18 rbs, 4 steals
Marion 22 pts, 9 rbs
Nash 13 assists

Amare's been an animal. Better than before the knee surgeries. Especially on the boards. (he still gets the explosive crowd pleasing dunks)
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Post by Winnow »

23-8

More Amare stats tonight. He's always been criticized for his defense. Check his numbers tonight:

15 pts , 8 rbs, 3 stls, 6 blks

add 4 more steals from Marion tonight.

I'm not seeing a weakness in Amare's game anymore. He has the outside jumper, is a scoring machine in the low post, can run the floor and finish the break, and is crashing the boards, blocking shots, stealing balls and even dishing out some nice assists. He's a good free throw shooter for a big man as well. The best assist of the night was one of Amare's.
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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

On another note, that 144-135 Warrior loss with no OT was the craziest shit most noone saw, fucking nellie ball is fun to watch
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Post by Boogahz »

Pherr the Dorf wrote:On another note, that 144-135 Warrior loss with no OT was the craziest shit most noone saw, fucking nellie ball is fun to watch
Was he the Denver coach back in the run-and-gun days? I remember some seriously unreal scores back then.
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