Why there should be a recount of Ohio

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Why there should be a recount of Ohio

Post by Karae »

It's pretty simple, follow along.
93,000 Extra Votes In Cuyahoga County - Outrage In Ohio

By Teed Rockwell
Philosophy Department, Sonoma State University
11-12-4



Smoking Gun

You may have seen the associated press story about the precinct in Cuyahoga county that had less than 1,000 voters, and gave Bush almost 4,000 extra votes.


But that turns out to be only the tip of a very ugly iceberg. The evidence discovered by some remarkably careful sleuthing would convince any reasonable court to invalidate the entire Ohio election.


In last Tuesday's election, 29 precincts in Cuyahoga County, Ohio, reported votes cast IN EXCESS of the number of registered voters - at least 93,136 extra votes total. And the numbers are right there on the official Cuyahoga County Board of Elections website:


Bay Village - 13,710 registered voters / 18,663 ballots cast
Beachwood - 9,943 registered voters / 13,939 ballots cast
Bedford - 9,942 registered voters / 14,465 ballots cast
Bedford Heights - 8,142 registered voters / 13,512 ballots cast
Brooklyn - 8,016 registered voters / 12,303 ballots cast
Brooklyn Heights - 1,144 registered voters / 1,869 ballots cast
Chagrin Falls Village - 3,557 registered voters / 4,860 ballots cast
Cuyahoga Heights - 570 registered voters / 1,382 ballots cast
Fairview Park - 13,342 registered voters / 18,472 ballots cast
Highland Hills Village - 760 registered voters / 8,822 ballots cast
Independence - 5,735 registered voters / 6,226 ballots cast
Mayfield Village - 2,764 registered voters / 3,145 ballots cast
Middleburg Heights - 12,173 registered voters / 14,854 ballots cast
Moreland Hills Village - 2,990 registered voters / 4,616 ballots cast
North Olmstead - 25,794 registered voters / 25,887 ballots cast
Olmstead Falls - 6,538 registered voters / 7,328 ballots cast
Pepper Pike - 5,131 registered voters / 6,479 ballots cast
Rocky River - 16,600 registered voters / 20,070 ballots cast
Solon (WD6) - 2,292 registered voters / 4,300 ballots cast
South Euclid - 16,902 registered voters / 16,917 ballots cast
Strongsville (WD3) - 7,806 registered voters / 12,108 ballots cast
University Heights - 10,072 registered voters / 11,982 ballots cast
Valley View Village - 1,787 registered voters / 3,409 ballots cast
Warrensville Heights - 10,562 registered voters / 15,039 ballots cast
Woodmere Village - 558 registered voters / 8,854 ballots cast
Bedford (CSD) - 22,777 registered voters / 27,856 ballots cast
Independence (LSD) - 5,735 registered voters / 6,226 ballots cast
Orange (CSD) - 11,640 registered voters / 22,931 ballots cast
Warrensville (CSD) - 12,218 registered voters / 15,822 ballots cast


The Republicans are so BUSTED.


http://boe.cuyahogacounty.us//BOE/resul ... s1.htm#top

...is the official website of the Cuyahoga county election board, providing irrefutable evidence that the vote was off by at least 93,000. Kerry lost Ohio by approximately 130,000, so this is not an insignificant figure that can be ignored, particularly when there are numerous other indications of voter fraud in Ohio and elsewhere.


I think the only possible alternative is to invalidate the entire Ohio election, if not the entire national election. I'd say the game's up.


America, it looks pretty much like you've been had.


Sincerely,


Teed Rockwell
Philosophy Department
Sonoma State University
That's 93,000 votes more than there are registered voters. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that 60%, roughly 149,000, of the registered voters in those precincts actually voted. If you subtract that from the total number of votes counted, roughly 342,000, you're left with 193,000, almost 60,000 votes more than Bush's margin of "victory" for the entire state. Speculating that the pattern is similar to this Ohio precinct where Bush received 4258 votes when only 638 people actually voted would mean, yep you guessed it, Bush lost Ohio and the election.

Speculation aside, a recount is just as important to figure out why this happened and how to prevent it. I think that Democrats, Republicans, and Independents alike can agree that it's important our votes are counted fairly and accurately...and that 200,000 votes can't manifest themselves out of thin air. It's why elections need to be as transparent as possible. Why voting machines should print a receipt. And why you shouldn't be able to change election results by editing a text file on a Windows PC.

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Post by Aslanna »

I agree that it is strange to see the number of actual votes exceed the total number of registered voters. Or to even come close since how often does every single registered voter actually vote?

Although even if it's true I doubt it will change anything.
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Post by Mak »

Why is it assumed that all the "extra" votes are for Bush?
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Post by Thess »

Who cares who they are for honestly. I want us to live in a democracy where everyones vote counts, regardless of outcome. I just want to feel that when I vote, I don't think to myself, 'ok I voted, now where did it go'
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Post by Karae »

Mak wrote:Why is it assumed that all the "extra" votes are for Bush?
I speculated they were because they were in the only precinct that has investigated the extra votes. Unfortunately, Cuyahoga County hasn't posted a precinct by precinct count of the votes for each candidate so that's the only information available for speculation. I feel that was sufficiently disclaimed in the original post.

But like Thess (and myself) have said before, it doesn't matter who the votes were for. What matters is that almost 200,000 votes were counted that were never cast by a human hand. That's something that should be terrifying to any American, regardless of party affiliation.
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Post by Chmee »

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/p ... ing11.html
The Ohio vote-fraud theory appears to stem from the curious ways of the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections. During even-numbered years, the county's canvassing board posts vote totals that include the results from congressional districts outside the county that spill over Cuyahoga's borders. The quirk made it look as if the county had 90,000 more votes than voters.

The disparities were spotted, and urgent mass mailings began: "Ohio precincts report up to 1,586% turnout ... 30 Precincts in Ohio's Cuyahoga County report 'over' 100% turnout!" Later, the county added a disclaimer to its Web site in an attempt to explain the numbers.

"It takes me about three times to explain" why the fraud allegation is untrue, said Kimberly Bartlett, community outreach specialist for the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections. "You have to ask them why no top Democrat is making these charges."
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Post by Aabidano »

Other than to void the election results, it wouldn't make sense for anyone to insert this many votes statewide. I'd lean more towards defective voting machines or counting methods. The scenarios for "fixing the election right" are too easy compared to the gross error that this represents.

The situation seems more like something that's historically happened in NYC, Chicago or Louisiana and not been commented on :)

Given the state of the electronic voting machines, you could make anyone you wanted to win with assistance from corrupt\lax voting officials. Scannable hard copy reciepts are probably the best protection, the can be hand counted if you're going to use voting terminals. Using optical scan in the first place makes more sense, you have the voters original input in that case rather than a translation that costs more to make.

Please note that the people creating the voting systems are the same ones that make your bank's ATMs. It's a pretty sorry state of affairs right now, they've taken a 15 year backwards leap from a security perspective.
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Post by Hoarmurath »

After all the shit-talking about how Gore won the popular vote in 2000 but lost the electoral college, how ironic it would have been if Kerry had won Ohio, thereby losing the popular vote but winning the electoral college.

I voted for Kerry, and I'm an avid Bush-hater, too. But hey, if the majority of Americans want Bush in the White House, fuck it, let them have their man.
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Post by Fash »

Don't overlook Chmee's post where the board of elections in the main post comes out to explain their dumbass numbers and why it doesn't show fraud. so much for 'irrefutable' proof. Listen to Bill Clinton and stop fucking whining.
Last edited by Fash on November 19, 2004, 10:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Cuyahoga county is a Democrat stronghold dumbass. It houses the mistake by the lake....Cleveland. Could you possibly whine some more about retarded shit?
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Post by Nick »

Yeah Karae go back to sleep!11
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Post by Animalor »

The election was over when Kerry abdicated. I don't think he can come back 17 days after the election, rescind his abdication and fight this now to get the job.
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Post by Chidoro »

Hoarmurath wrote:I voted for Kerry, and I'm an avid Bush-hater, too. But hey, if the majority of Americans want Bush in the White House, fuck it, let them have their man.
I agree, the pop vote is too high different to bother.
The schmoes want him in office, they got him.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/ ... index.html
Grats continuing to bankrupt our future for our children Bush! Thank God I'm in a high bracket with a good portfolio. Hate to be a broke rube like thew tens of millions that signed this schmuck on.
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Post by Seebs »

Seems like liberals are bad at math.

It doesn't take an abacus to figure out you all had a fucktard for a candidate and it costs you.

Why didn't Hillary run?
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Post by Kluden »

Now that you linked an article to the debt increase bill, I can comment on that!

I watched Sen. Byrd's speach before the bill vote...it was hilarious. That crazy ole' bastard from West Virginia is like a little kid when he gets to the podium.

he's funny, and a very good speaker.

That being said, I can't believe the amount of debt this country is still in :(
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Post by Chidoro »

Aye Klu
And for people who don't understand exactly why this is a really shitty time to be doing this

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6529487/
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Post by Thess »

Animalor wrote:The election was over when Kerry abdicated. I don't think he can come back 17 days after the election, rescind his abdication and fight this now to get the job.
You are wrong, someone conceeding means nothing in terms of law.
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Post by Animalor »

Thess wrote:
Animalor wrote:The election was over when Kerry abdicated. I don't think he can come back 17 days after the election, rescind his abdication and fight this now to get the job.
You are wrong, someone conceeding means nothing in terms of law.
Then I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

I wonder when the conspiracy theories will end? Talk about sore loosers.
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Post by Lynks »

I bet the Dems threw the election so Hillary can get into office in 08! Why are some of you playing the "i'm holier than thow" card. If things were reversed, ya'll would be doing the same thing.

Something happened in this election, more actual votes than registered votes calls for some kind of investigation no matter who the winner is.
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Post by Thess »

It's not about being a sore loser at all. Regardless of outcome, regardless of if anything changes - I just want us to live in a pure democracy. Personally I care also about the overseas and military ballots being counted, I'd really like to see how they voted.
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Post by Lohrno »

Seebs wrote:Seems like liberals are bad at math.

It doesn't take an abacus to figure out you all had a fucktard for a candidate and it costs you.

Why didn't Hillary run?
That's not exactly what the exit polls showed.

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Post by Seebs »

Exit polls are taken by unemployed college students with nothing better t odo. Think those got skewed somehow.

I have no faith in these exit polls .. I do have faith in that site that put all the 8 major polsl together (Zogby, USA Today etc) and averaged them. Was spot on for this election.
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Post by Thess »

Seebs wrote:Exit polls are taken by unemployed college students with nothing better t odo. Think those got skewed somehow.

I have no faith in these exit polls .. I do have faith in that site that put all the 8 major polsl together (Zogby, USA Today etc) and averaged them. Was spot on for this election.
Bush's 'Incredible' Vote Tallies
By Sam Parry
November 9, 2004


George W. Bush’s vote tallies, especially in the key state of Florida, are so statistically stunning that they border on the unbelievable.

While it’s extraordinary for a candidate to get a vote total that exceeds his party’s registration in any voting jurisdiction – because of non-voters – Bush racked up more votes than registered Republicans in 47 out of 67 counties in Florida. In 15 of those counties, his vote total more than doubled the number of registered Republicans and in four counties, Bush more than tripled the number.

Statewide, Bush earned about 20,000 more votes than registered Republicans.

By comparison, in 2000, Bush’s Florida total represented about 85 percent of the total number of registered Republicans, about 2.9 million votes compared with 3.4 million registered Republicans.

Bush achieved these totals although exit polls showed him winning only about 14 percent of the Democratic vote statewide – statistically the same as in 2000 when he won 13 percent of the Democratic vote – and losing Florida’s independent voters to Kerry by a 57 percent to 41 percent margin. In 2000, Gore won the independent vote by a much narrower margin of 47 to 46 percent.

[For details on the Florida turnout in 2000, see http://www.msnbc.com/m/d2k/g/polls.asp? ... P&state=FL. For details on the 2004 Florida turnout, see http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/ ... index.html]

Exit Poll Discrepancies

Similar surprising jumps in Bush’s vote tallies across the country – especially when matched against national exits polls showing Kerry winning by 51 percent to 48 percent – have fed suspicion among rank-and-file Democrats that the Bush campaign rigged the vote, possibly through systematic computer hacking.

Republican pollster Dick Morris said the Election Night pattern of mistaken exit polls favoring Kerry in six battleground states – Florida, Ohio, New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada and Iowa – was virtually inconceivable.

“Exit polls are almost never wrong,” Morris wrote. “So reliable are the surveys that actually tap voters as they leave the polling places that they are used as guides to the relative honesty of elections in Third World countries. … To screw up one exit poll is unheard of. To miss six of them is incredible. It boggles the imagination how pollsters could be that incompetent and invites speculation that more than honest error was at play here.”

But instead of following his logic that the discrepancy suggested vote tampering – as it would in Latin America, Africa or Eastern Europe – Morris postulated a bizarre conspiracy theory that the exit polls were part of a scheme to have the networks call the election for Kerry and thus discourage Bush voters on the West Coast. Of course, none of the networks did call any of the six states for Kerry, making Morris’s conspiracy theory nonsensical. Nevertheless, some Democrats have agreed with Morris's bottom-line recommendation that the whole matter deserves “more scrutiny and investigation.” [The Hill, Nov. 8, 2004]

Erroneous Votes

Democratic doubts about the Nov. 2 election have deepened with anecdotal evidence of voters reporting that they tried to cast votes for Kerry but touch-screen voting machines came up registering their votes for Bush.

In Ohio, election officials said an error with an electronic voting system in Franklin County gave Bush 3,893 extra votes in suburban Columbus, more than 1,000 percent more than he actually got.

Yet, without a nationwide investigation, it’s impossible to know whether those cases were isolated glitches or part of a more troubling pattern.

If Bush’s totals weren’t artificially enhanced, they would represent one of the most remarkable electoral achievements in U.S. history.

In the two presidential elections since Sen. Bob Dole lost to Bill Clinton in 1996, Bush would have increased Republican voter turnout nationwide by a whopping 52 percent from just under 40 million votes for Dole to just under 60 million votes for the GOP ticket in 2004.

Such an increase in voter turnout over two consecutive election cycles is not unprecedented, but has historically flowed from landslide victories that see shifting voting patterns, with millions of crossover voters straying from one party to the other.

For example, in 1972, Richard Nixon increased Republican turnout by 73.5 percent over Barry Goldwater’s performance two elections earlier. But this turnout was amplified by the fact that Goldwater lost in 1964 to Lyndon Johnson by about 23 percentage points and Nixon trounced George McGovern by 23 percentage points.

What’s remarkable about Bush’s increase over the last two elections is that Democrats have done an impressive job boosting their own voter turnout from 1996 to 2004. Over this period, candidates Al Gore and John Kerry increased Democratic turnout by about 18 percent, from roughly 47.5 million votes in 1996 to nearly 56 million in 2004.

What this suggests is that Bush is not so much winning his new votes from Democrats crossing over, but rather by going deeper than many observers thought possible into new pockets of dormant Republican voters.

Bush’s Gains

But where did these new voters come from, and how did Bush manage to accelerate his turnout gains at a time when the Democratic ticket was also substantially increasing its turnout?

While the statistical analysis of these new voters is only just beginning, Bush’s ability to find nearly 9 million new voters in an election year when his Democratic opponent also saw gains of about 5 million new voters is the story of the 2004 election.

Exit polls also suggest that voters identifying themselves as Republicans voted as a greater proportion of the electorate than in 2000 and that Bush won a slightly greater percent of the Republican vote.

The party breakdown in 2000 was 39 percent Democrats, 35 percent Republicans, and 27 percent independents. In 2000, Bush won the Republican vote by 91 percent to 8 percent; narrowly won the independent vote by 47 percent to 45 percent and picked up 11 percent of the Democratic vote compared with Gore’s Democratic turnout of 86 percent. [See http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/epolls/US/P000.html for details.]

According to exit polls this year, the turnout broke evenly among Democrats and Republicans, with about 37 percent each. Independents represented about 26 percent of the electorate. Kerry actually did better among independents, winning that group of voters by a narrow 49 percent to 48 percent margin.

However, Bush did slightly better among the larger number of Republican voters, winning 93 percent of their vote, while matching his 2000 performance by taking about 11 percent of the Democratic vote.

Registration Up

While this turnout might strike many observers as unusual in an election year that witnessed huge voter registration and mobilization efforts by Democrats and groups aligned with Democrats, the increased GOP turnout does seem to fit with the campaign strategy deployed by the Bush team to run to the base.

From the start of the 2004 campaign, political strategist Karl Rove and the Bush team made its goals clear – maximize Bush’s support among social and economic conservatives – including Evangelicals and Club for Growth/anti-government conservatives – and turn them out by driving up Kerry’s negatives with harsh attacks questioning Kerry’s leadership credentials.

This strategy emerged from Rove’s estimate after the 2000 election that 4 million Evangelical voters stayed home that year. The Bush/Rove strategy in 2004 rested primarily on turning out that base of support.

But, even if one were to estimate that 100 percent of these Evangelical voters turned out for Bush in 2004 and that 100 percent of Bush’s 2000 supporters turned out again for him, this still leaves about 5 million new Bush voters unaccounted for.

Altogether, Bush’s new 9 million votes came mainly from the largest states in the country. But nowhere was Bush’s performance more incredible than in Florida, where Bush found roughly 1 million new voters, about 11 percent all new Bush voters nationwide and more than twice the number of new voters than in any other state other than Texas.

Bush increased his turnout in all 67 Florida counties, marking the second consecutive election in which Bush increased Republican vote totals in all Florida counties, and overall achieved a 34 percent increase in Florida votes over his 2000 total.

Since Bob Dole’s 1996 turnout of 2.24 million Florida votes, Bush has increased the GOP’s performance in the state by an astonishing 74 percent. Making Bush’s gains even more impressive, Kerry also saw gains in all but five Florida counties and in 22 counties earned at least 10,000 more votes than Gore earned in 2000.

Exceeding Kerry

But Bush’s vote gains exceeded Kerry’s in all the large counties in the state except in heavily Democratic Miami-Dade, where Kerry increased his turnout by 56,000 new votes compared with Bush’s 40,000 new votes. This Democratic improvement in Miami-Dade seems to have come in large part from Democratic success in registering new voters in the county by almost a 2-to-1 margin over Republicans.

In spite of this new-voter registration advantage, Kerry only earned a 7-to-5 increase of new voter turnout over Bush in Miami-Dade, a statistical oddity given the fact that Kerry did a better job than Gore in turning out his Democratic base, earning a vote total equaling 85 percent of all registered Democrats in the county compared with Gore’s total in 2000 equaling 83 percent of all registered Democrats.

In other Democratic strongholds of Broward and Palm Beach counties, Kerry gained 114,000 new voters, earning nearly 770,000 votes, and bested Bush by more than 320,000 votes. But, this was actually a modest improvement for Bush over 2000, thanks to Bush’s increase of 119,000 new voters in these counties, from 330,000 votes in 2000 to 449,000 votes in 2004.

Bush’s performance in these two counties is worth studying in greater detail. In both counties, Democrats saw a significant increase in new voter registration since 2000, more than 77,000 newly registered Democrats in Broward and 34,000 newly registered Democrats in Palm Beach.

Republicans on the other hand only registered 17,000 new voters in Broward and a bit more than 2,000 new voters in Palm Beach. While both counties saw substantial numbers of new unaffiliated or third party registered voters, the Democratic advantage in both counties combined of more than 111,000 newly registered Dems against fewer than 20,000 newly registered GOP voters, as well as the voter intensity that these new registration rates usually represent, suggested that Kerry should have done better than Bush relative to the 2000 election.

Instead, Bush actually increased his vote total in the two counties by earning about 5,000 more new voters than Kerry.

New Level

Beyond southern Florida, Bush took turnout throughout the state to a new level, testing the bounds of statistical probability by winning votes seemingly from every corner of the state, from the panhandle to the Gulf Coast, from the I-4 corridor to the Atlantic Coast from Jacksonville to Miami.

Another county worth examining in some detail is Orange County, a swing county home to Orlando in the center of the state. As in Miami-Dade, Palm Beach, and Broward counties, Democrats successfully registered substantially more new voters than Republicans, about 49,000 new Democrats against about 25,000 new Republicans.

These gains broke what was once a statistical tie in registered voters between the parties, giving Democrats a 214,000 to 187,000 advantage across the county. But Kerry only managed a narrow countywide victory with 192,030 votes against 191,389 votes for Bush. In 2000, Gore carried the county with 140,115 votes against 134,476 votes for Bush.

While it's conceivable Bush might have achieved these and other gains through his hardball campaign strategies and strong get-out-the-vote effort, many Americans, looking at these and other statistically incredible Bush vote counts, are likely to continue to suspect that the Republicans put a thumb on the electoral scales, somehow exaggerating Bush's tallies through manipulation of computer tabulations.

Only an open-minded investigation with public scrutiny would have much hope of quelling these rising suspicions.
Just one article on why exit polls are and have been reliable.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2004/110904.html
Last edited by Thess on November 19, 2004, 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Atokal »

First off it seems that the USA has problems with keeping track of eligible voters and crossing them off a fucking list as they vote.

Second, as stated earlier who says that all the "extra" votes would have been for the Dems.

Third, Stop whining, the bell rang, Kerry met the champ, and hit the canvass. Move on.

Thess, all the voters ballots got counted, some of them twice it seems. 8)
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Post by Seebs »

Not to posters. I don't read these agate type attachments. POst a link or sumptin.
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Post by Lohrno »

Atokal wrote: Thess, all the voters ballots got counted, some of them (republicans mostly) twice(or more) it seems. 8)
There, fixed. =D


The issue here is not mainly whether or not Kerry won or lost, it's the larger suspicious statistical anomolies, and the ease that they can be manipulated.

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Last edited by Lohrno on November 19, 2004, 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Aabidano »

Doesn't really show me anything...

Kerry took the counties he was expected to, as did Bush.

FL isn't an example to prove anything, especially given the 2 candidates stances on abortion, appearances of religion, etc...

Other than a few counties full of folks from NY, NJ and MA this is still the bible belt, doesn't matter if your a republican or democrat when it comes to "moral" issues. If you can't be convincing on them, you will lose.

*Edit - Not even going to get into the subjectivity of the exit pollers, I'm going to trust college students hired by the democratic party? Give it a rest. Over in Pinellas county the exit pollers were harrasing people for voting Bush when being polled.
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Post by Seebs »

Was more a comment on the ignorance of youth .. not party affiliation.
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Post by Fash »

Exit polls are an extremely useless waste of time and money.

--THE-- POLL (the election) will be decided in 8-16 hours. The answer will be had.

You don't need a fucking exit poll to satisfy your election obsession for a few hours until the outcome is announced.

And the reason GWB got so many votes is because even a good chunk of democrats couldn't stomach flippy the flip-flopper.

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Post by masteen »

A lot of people just didn't buy into the "Anyone but Bush" campaign that Kerry ran. I think that that more than the alleged "flip-flopping" was the reason Kerry made NO inroads into middle America.
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Post by Karae »

Animalor wrote:The election was over when Kerry abdicated. I don't think he can come back 17 days after the election, rescind his abdication and fight this now to get the job.
Uh, last I checked concession speeches aren't legally binding. The election isn't over until Dick Cheney reads the electoral vote count before a joint session of Congress.

In general-

You can believe that explanation if you want, but it doesn't explain why Bush got almost 4000 votes more than registered voters in the only precinct where this has been investigated.

Exit polls were accurate...in every state with paper ballots. The innaccurate election polls only arise states with electronic (non-verifiable) ballots.

I'll say it again, non-verifiable electronic ballots are inducive to fraud. This is an issue that affects every American and isn't "retarded shit." (Not that a response like that from Kilmoll was unexpected). This simple fact is, it merits investigation.
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Post by Seebs »

The flip flopping thing was part of it. The disconnect most of the nation has with Californians and a Northeast liberal is the main point, Find someone likable.
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Post by Sylvus »

If Bush supporters are confident that their guy is who the American people want, and who the American people voted for, why be against investigating strange results? If he did, in fact, win - and i'm not saying he didn't - the investigation should reflect that and nothing should change.

If I had voted for Bush I would welcome any investigation that would silence the opposing peoples' cries of foul play. Then I'd take a hammer and pound a nail through my nasal cavity until it punctured my brain.
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Post by Homercles »

Did I not tell everyone here, that Ohio was in a position of power for this election. And that Governor Bob Taft would strike a deal with which ever candidate made the best offer.


It only goes to reason that the Bush campaign made the best offer. The peoples of Ohio can expect major projects to be paid completely with federal monies.

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On a side note: If New Hampshire would have proved the deciding state in the presidential election, allegations of voter fraud would have been levied against that state. There will always be people that cannot fathom that their candidate was beaten, and cannot fathom that the majority of people in this country do not think as they do. And will always look to find cheaters and criminals which turned the election against them.
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

I voted for Kerry. He lost. Stop the BS please, this kind of shit pisses me off. Can the freakin Dems lose one election with class? Do you realize how stupid you look when you want to freakin investigate and contest every single election you lose? Stop trying to turn "Republicans steal elections" into your mantra, it's well beyond old.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Sylvus wrote:If Bush supporters are confident that their guy is who the American people want, and who the American people voted for, why be against investigating strange results? If he did, in fact, win - and i'm not saying he didn't - the investigation should reflect that and nothing should change.

If I had voted for Bush I would welcome any investigation that would silence the opposing peoples' cries of foul play. Then I'd take a hammer and pound a nail through my nasal cavity until it punctured my brain.
Because these problems exist in every election. They are only being brought to the public and being displayed as something new and mysterious because they want Bush's second term to be viewed as a stolen election just as they did to his first term.
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Post by Sylvus »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the last couple elections have been a lot closer than any others in recent memory, yes?
They are only being brought to the public and being displayed as something new and mysterious because they want Bush's second term to be viewed as a stolen election just as they did to his first term.
So do the investigation and when they find out that Bush legitimately won, nobody will be able to say that it was stolen.
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Post by Seebs »

<3 Krimson.

I laugh, honesty gaffaw when I read post like Sylvus'. Tragic.


I worked late elcetion night and actually told a liberal co-worker of mine grats on Kerry winning (as it seemed he was on his way) and that I'd support him.

funny how he has never recrocarted that sentiment to me the next day.
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Post by Aabidano »

I'm not saying don't investigate it, and I'm completely for verifiable voting methods.

I'd also say that the technology used in our electronic voting systems for the most part, suck. Election officials who directed that the purchases be made should be held responsible.

From what I've read, people got exactly what they asked for. After the purchase when it was pointed out that they bought a defficient product they buried their heads fearing political fallout over the fact.

The people making the purchase decision did not have the knowledge to make it, and did not have the staff to test it prior to purchase. "Yup it works, look at the pretty menus!" Where have I seen that sort of purchasing decision made before? :)

Not too mention some of the vendors are pretty sleazy, and are licking their chops over the inevitable fixes which will allso boost their stock price.

Most of the the examples given, especially polling data are a big steaming load though.
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

Richard Nixon, not the best of presidents, did have one moment, and it was this quote he made when it seemed that Kennedy stole the election from him in 1960. He refused to demand a recount or a challenge because....

"a challenge would cause a constitutional crisis and hurt America in the eyes of the world and tear the country apart."
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Post by Sylvus »

I think that you have misunderstood me. I think what hurts our country more is that people feel that the election was stolen. Something appears amiss in at least Ohio and maybe Florida. I think it's important to find out what's wrong, if anything, with voting in those states so that we can correct that, and I think it'd be better for the country if people couldn't say "oh yeah, well Bush won because he cheated." Finding out that Bush won fair and square would (hopefully) get people to stop wasting their energy on crying foul play. I voted Kerry and I wish that he would have won, but I'm not trying to say that he did and was robbed.
Seebs wrote:I laugh, honesty gaffaw when I read post like Sylvus'. Tragic.
That's quite the broken english there, but at least it speaks to your lack of reading comprehension. Perhaps you should stick to the hilarious non sequiturs.
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Post by Homercles »

Sylus, even if the recount were done, and the result remained the same, people would still claim "Bush stole the election" "The recount was fraudulant!"


Some people cannot and will not accept defeat.
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Post by Lohrno »

Homercles wrote:Sylus, even if the recount were done, and the result remained the same, people would still claim "Bush stole the election" "The recount was fraudulant!"
If I thought that an honest attempt at recounting were done I certainly would not at least. You all can hold me to that.

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Post by Krimson Klaw »

Sylvus wrote:I think that you have misunderstood me. I think what hurts our country more is that people feel that the election was stolen. Something appears amiss in at least Ohio and maybe Florida. I think it's important to find out what's wrong, if anything, with voting in those states so that we can correct that, and I think it'd be better for the country if people couldn't say "oh yeah, well Bush won because he cheated." Finding out that Bush won fair and square would (hopefully) get people to stop wasting their energy on crying foul play. I voted Kerry and I wish that he would have won, but I'm not trying to say that he did and was robbed.
Seebs wrote:I laugh, honesty gaffaw when I read post like Sylvus'. Tragic.
That's quite the broken english there, but at least it speaks to your lack of reading comprehension. Perhaps you should stick to the hilarious non sequiturs.
You are stating that the process needs to be investigated for flaws and improved, and I agree with you. That's complete logic talking there.
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Post by Winnow »

You guys got smoked so bad in the popular vote that your sea of lawyers look like dickwads trying to drum up this shit.

PS: exit polls reflect loud mouths (liberals) who were duped into thinking the nation hated Bush while the conservative, more cool, calm and collected voters, didn't bother with exit polls. It's no surprise the fanatical liberals blogged away claiming Kerry was ahead in the early hours of the election while the conservatives calmly went about their business and voted later in the day.

This thread doesn't surprise me though. The only ones that seem to be in tune with reality are the few republicans like Krimson who voted for Kerry but can acknowledge the Bush won and move on with their lives.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Krimson Klaw wrote:Richard Nixon, not the best of presidents, did have one moment, and it was this quote he made when it seemed that Kennedy stole the election from him in 1960. He refused to demand a recount or a challenge because....

"a challenge would cause a constitutional crisis and hurt America in the eyes of the world and tear the country apart."
Unfortunately, it appears fewer and fewer people care about the big picture anymore these days.
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Post by Lohrno »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: Unfortunately, it appears fewer and fewer people care about the big picture anymore these days.
So if the election was proven to have purposely disenfranchised thosuands of people you would not care?

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Post by Brotha »

I chalk this up to liberals having a sudden, painful reality check. They're surrounded entirely by people who think just like them- they all hate Bush, think he's the worst president in the history of the US, etc, etc...then one day they suddenly find out that THEY in fact are the ones completely out of the mainstream and that the majority of the country supports Bush and the job he's done. To them, there's NO possible way so many people could actually support Bush (it's just an established fact that he's a terrible president and everyone despises him)- the only possible answer is that Bush somehow cheated.
Freedom of speech makes it much easier to spot the idiots.
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Post by Lohrno »

Brotha wrote:I chalk this up to liberals having a sudden, painful reality check. They're surrounded entirely by people who think just like them- they all hate Bush, think he's the worst president in the history of the US, etc, etc...then one day they suddenly find out that THEY in fact are the ones completely out of the mainstream and that the majority of the country supports Bush and the job he's done. To them, there's NO possible way so many people could actually support Bush (it's just an established fact that he's a terrible president and everyone despises him)- the only possible answer is that Bush somehow cheated.
Do some research into it before you dismiss it out of hand. There are some irregularities.

Also, I wouldn't call 50+ million people 'Out of the mainstream.'

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