Church and You

[Syenye]

You should probably sit her down and talk to her straight up about your beliefs and her beliefs, and if she can't respect what you believe in, then she can't expect you to attend her services. All of the Protestant (and a lot of the Catholic) services I've ever attended were more about showing how pious you were and meeting guys rather than actual spirituality.

If she thinks that guilting you into going to church with her is a fabulous idea, she should re-examine her own beliefs. Or consider Catholicism, we're great at guilt.

For reference: I am Roman Catholic and my husband is some flavor of Western Buddhist. I attend Mass weekly and on holy days, and my husband usually attends. It's nice to have someone sitting next to me, and I also have someone to poke when they mention hell. Buddhism/Catholicism aren't really all that incompatible, and it works out for us, but I think it takes a fundamental respect for your partner AND your religion. Catholicism is too important to me to allow myself to force someone into it who doesn't accept and believe it wholly. I have several Catholic friends who think I'm a heathen for marrying a Buddhist without forcing him to convert, but I don't fake orgasms and he doesn't fake Catholicism.

[Lynxe]

Women need those little "I'd do anything for you honey" moments, maybe thats all she wants...

Not all. I need a partner for the rest of my life, not a heroic lap dog

Back on topic
Polite Wording:She sounds quite devoted to her faith and engaging her significant other in it is obviously important to her. She is hoping to change your mind and unless you are willing to change, means you may not be the right man for her.

Straight Up: She is trying to force you to do something you don't want to for her own selfish reasons. That is manipulation attempt number two and it is working because you feel bad when in fact, you should be mad. Get the hell out of that relationship.

[Sueven]

I think you should go.

It's something that's important to her. It's hardly any skin off your back to do it (just a waste of an hour or two) and it's important to her. Being unwilling to go entirely seems very selfish to me.

Would you be willing to waste a couple hours of your life going to see a movie that you didn't want to see with her? Why wouldn't you be willing to waste a few hours to do something which is much more important to her?

And instead of sitting there and stewing and thinking about how everyone but you is a sheep, here's an idea: Listen to the sermon and take it seriously. You don't have to believe in God or Christianity to learn something from a Christian sermon. It's an opportunity to understand other people better.

Of course, if she starts pressuring you to go every week, to convert, or whatever, that's a problem. But if she just wants to share this part of her life with you once in awhile... yeah, you are an asshole if you completely refuse.

[Dregor Thule]

I think you should go.

It's something that's important to her. It's hardly any skin off your back to do it (just a waste of an hour or two) and it's important to her. Being unwilling to go entirely seems very selfish to me.

Would you be willing to waste a couple hours of your life going to see a movie that you didn't want to see with her? Why wouldn't you be willing to waste a few hours to do something which is much more important to her?

And instead of sitting there and stewing and thinking about how everyone but you is a sheep, here's an idea: Listen to the sermon and take it seriously. You don't have to believe in God or Christianity to learn something from a Christian sermon. It's an opportunity to understand other people better.

Of course, if she starts pressuring you to go every week, to convert, or whatever, that's a problem. But if she just wants to share this part of her life with you once in awhile... yeah, you are an asshole if you completely refuse.

I don't think you can really compare going to church against your will and going to see a movie against your will as the same thing. One is a form of entertainment, the other is a belief system that helps define a lot of people. I'll leave it up to everyone else to figure out which is which. I can't speak for every atheist/agnostic out there, but I know for myself I've already been fed the church spiel. I doubt many people need to still "give it a try", religion has usually been inaugurated into our lives before puberty.

I think you're understating the weight of this. I have no idea on your personal beliefs so I won't even try and judge how it's coloured your comments. If I was seeing someone who tried this on me it'd be a deal breaker. There's some things you just can't share if both parties don't feel the same way. I doubt they'd be very reasonable about joining me for a few hours of decrying the existence of god, even if it was wrapped up in a shiny package with a moral thrown in to make the kool-aid easier to swallow.

[Sueven]

I think you're understating the weight of this. I have no idea on your personal beliefs so I won't even try and judge how it's coloured your comments.

I'm an atheist.

I don't think you can really compare going to church against your will and going to see a movie against your will as the same thing. One is a form of entertainment, the other is a belief system that helps define a lot of people. I'll leave it up to everyone else to figure out which is which. I can't speak for every atheist/agnostic out there, but I know for myself I've already been fed the church spiel. I doubt many people need to still "give it a try", religion has usually been inaugurated into our lives before puberty.

Sure. I agree with all of that. But I don't think Nez's lady is trying to force a conversion, or even asking him to give religion 'a try.' She's just asking him if he would be willing to accompany her to church sometime. If faced with that request, I certainly wouldn't feel as if I was being pressured to adopt a belief system-- I think I would trust her explanation that she wants him to experience a part of her life which is important to her. I simply don't understand what's so offensive or bothersome about that.

Different churches preach radically different messages. You can go to church and hear a hateful sermon spewing venom toward heathens, or you can go to a church and hear a message of love and empathy which can be meaningful regardless of whether you buy into Christianity. I personally like to understand the women I date as deeply as possible, and gaining an understanding of the church which profoundly influences them is valuable to this end. I would find it valuable regardless of whether the girlfriend cared whether I came or not.

It seems like a lot of you are viewing this as Nez's girlfriend trying to impose her beliefs and lifestyle upon him, and I just don't agree at all. If the situation were to develop in that direction, then sure, he shouldn't participate.

[Winnow]

Church is a complete waste of time for those that don't desire the guidance a church offers (and none are better than another, they all just have a different set of rules)

For an atheist, picking up a good book on philosophy might be interesting. It also deals with how to live your life but in a much less forceful way, leaving it up to the individual to decide and not be forced to accept a set of rules from a particular organization that really has no authority to put those rules in place. Pick and choose the way you wish to live your life, a la carte style, from multiple sources.

You could read the bible or other form of religious scripture but the bullshit mixed in with any kind of moral values you see just wipes all benefit from doing so. Mostly these days I see people of various faiths making excuses for their religion.

I don't find organized religion amusing. The death and destruction caused by all organized religion (Christianity is as bad as any other faith) disgusts me. The brainwashed (yes I mean you) continue to wipe their minds of anything bad and think it's all about loving your neighbor or some shit. Listen up. Atheists can do that part of it without all the other bullshit that's attached to it in organized religion. Atheist doesn't mean anything other than, "chooses morals, values and ethics a la carte".

I don't hate your day to day member of organized religion. It does bother me that they choose to support a fake institution (religion is NOT an institution. there are four of those: family, education, economics, and political...philosophy should be the fifth) that is by far the number one cause for pain and suffering among humans.

Philosophy is the discipline concerned with questions of how one should live (ethics); what sorts of things exist and what are their essential natures (metaphysics); what counts as genuine knowledge (epistemology); and what are the correct principles of reasoning (logic).

[Canelek]

If you can look past the gal's god hangup, I would say go ahead and go to church with her once. If she was honest in her request, you will have fulfilled your end of things and she will not bother you about it anymore.

However, people that are really into church and shit will never let it go. Atheists are cool with whatever--many christians are not (mainly speaking of evangelical-types here).

Also, women never let anything go if they are not pleased about something in a relationship. Find a nice atheist girl.

[Neziroth]

Great advice guys I appreciate it all, like I said it's really helping me see both points of view.

A few things: She's not trying to convert me, but she did admit it would be nice if I ever did. I do believe her when she says she doesn't want to try to force it upon me though.

The thing is, as as much as it's some people's (religious) beliefs that they should attend church and support their fellow worshippers, it's my (personal) belief that I don't belong there and I don't want to support it. I don't have religious beliefs, so my personal beliefs are the most important thing I have. That's why I choose not to go.

I think I don't understand how important religion is to people who choose to follow it, and I think that's why I don't see why it's such a big deal that I don't go with her. The subject has come up in passing in a joking type manner as we've driven by some churches, but it wasn't pressed and that's fine with me.

However, her parents are both very religious as well, (they were eachother's "first", and only after they were married, and they attend regularly, among other things) so I'm guessing it's going to cause some turbulence there as well.

I'm choosing to stand behind my beliefs though. There's not much I wouldn't do for my significant other, but going against personal beliefs is something I perefer not to do for anyone.

P.S. I love the example that a religious person would be just as willing to decry the existence of God, that took a lot of guilt away that I had about being so stubborn, so thanks for pointing that out.

[Ashur]

Also, women never let anything go [...]

Truer words were never spoken. You didn't have to qualify it.

[Sueven]

P.S. I love the example that a religious person would be just as willing to decry the existence of God, that took a lot of guilt away that I had about being so stubborn, so thanks for pointing that out.

Is she asking you to embrace God? No. She's asking you to WATCH OTHER PEOPLE embrace God.

[Boogahz]

Eventually you will come to realize that every person that attends a church is not some fundamentalist freak out to convert or kill you. Unless you are some kind of freak-evil bastard, you can probably get something from the sermon. Most churches do not preach fire and brimstone. If you are such a closed-minded person that you can only associate sitting among a group of people and hearing a person speak with giving up control of your mind, you are the one that needs help.

[Nick]

P.S. I love the example that a religious person would be just as willing to decry the existence of God, that took a lot of guilt away that I had about being so stubborn, so thanks for pointing that out.

Is she asking you to embrace God? No. She's asking you to WATCH OTHER PEOPLE embrace God.

Please, you're an intelligent man, don't cheapen your argument to that overly simplistic crap mate.

[Aabidano]

I think I don't understand how important religion is to people who choose to follow it, and I think that's why I don't see why it's such a big deal that I don't go with her. The subject has come up in passing in a joking type manner as we've driven by some churches, but it wasn't pressed and that's fine with me.

....

I'm choosing to stand behind my beliefs though. There's not much I wouldn't do for my significant other, but going against personal beliefs is something I prefer not to do for anyone.

I don't see how going and supporting her for 45 minutes (or whatever) is acting against your personal beliefs myself. If you don't believe, it's just a roomful of people listening to a speaker as I think someone else said. Doesn't sound like she goes real often, so it's not like it's a huge imposition. Agreeing to go is good for some serious brownie points too whether you actually ever go or not.

However, her parents are both very religious as well, (they were eachother's "first", and only after they were married, and they attend regularly, among other things) so I'm guessing it's going to cause some turbulence there as well.

I doubt it, that would be their issue and not yours in any case. Sounds like you live together and they still talk to you, so they aren't that far our there. Doesn't sound like you've had a whole lot of exposure to fundamentalists

I go to church most weeks, the wife generally doesn't. Not a source of friction, it's her choice.

[Neziroth]

If you are such a closed-minded person that you can only associate sitting among a group of people and hearing a person speak with giving up control of your mind, you are the one that needs help.

I am pretty closed-minded on this matter and I'll fully admit it, but I don't think I need help.

Is she asking you to embrace God? No. She's asking you to WATCH OTHER PEOPLE embrace God.

It's not that I have a problem with people embracing God in any way and I don't fear that they're going to brainwash me and take over my mind, I'm not that ignorant. I'm not a big fan of organized religion, and I don't want to participate in it or be around it.

Eventually you will come to realize that every person that attends a church is not some fundamentalist freak out to convert or kill you. Unless you are some kind of freak-evil bastard, you can probably get something from the sermon.

I realize not everybody who goes to church is a fundamentalist freak, and I really hope I didn't come off that way. I may have, I apologize. I tried to make it really clear that I don't actually have a problem with people who attend church. I did say I'd be sitting there wondering why they were all there, but I didn't say I'd be thinking badly of them for it.

[Sueven]

I think the division here is simply between non-religious folks who don't mind religion (like myself, and maybe Boog, although I don't know his religious status) and non-religious folks who hate religion or think it's evil (like Nick and Nez and Winnow).

No-one's mind is going to be changed without an argument about the value of religion, which I'm not prepared to get involved in right now, so I don't think there's much more to say. Other than my opinion that open hatred of religion is bigotry. And yes, I've read Dawkins and Harris and the rest of the crowd.

[Winnow]

No-one's mind is going to be changed without an argument about the value of religion, which I'm not prepared to get involved in right now, so I don't think there's much more to say. Other than my opinion that open hatred of religion is bigotry. And yes, I've read Dawkins and Harris and the rest of the crowd.

There is value in some forms of religion but organized religion has shown itself to be a very bad thing. I'm not out to take away a dying person's comfort in thinking there's an afterlife or that person who's in a foxhole praying they don't die. You've got to take a long look at human history and see that organized religion has caused massive heartache, (not to mention 100's of millions of deaths)

If you're contemplating the benefits of religion from a philosophical point of view in its uncorrupted, purest form, that's different...but that's also not reality. Organized religion is simply a form of prejudice although most are blind to that point.

[Lalanae]

I have several Catholic friends who think I'm a heathen for marrying a Buddhist without forcing him to convert, but I don't fake orgasms and he doesn't fake Catholicism.

[MooZilla]

If you go to church with her, she comes to the strip club with you.

[Leonaerd]

Just make her do something equally retarded. The strip club suggestion is funny but not all that far off.

Every time you go to church, she watches this video afterwards.

[Ashur]

I'm with Sueven, just do it to make her happy, it won't kill you. You don't have to fucking drop on your knees and cry out to the Lord for forgiveness or anything for fucks sake. Maybe she just wants everyone else to see that she's with someone; chicks are like that.

I've been married twice, sometimes you have to do shit like this you don't like to do to make your partner happy.

If this is still an issue for you, just walk away man. .. walk away.*


* and never get married because, dude, this sort of thing never ends

[Drinsic Darkwood]

While I think that trying to guilt-trip you over not wanting to go is extremely lame, I'm siding with Sueven / Ash / Boog / whoever in that it really won't hurt you to go on occasion. Once or twice in any case, and as others have said, if it's absolutely unbearable, let her know.

[Marbus]

I have several Catholic friends who think I'm a heathen for marrying a Buddhist without forcing him to convert, but I don't fake orgasms and he doesn't fake Catholicism.

I think it's very admirable that 1 you have held on to your Faith and secondly that you guys make this work. Truly Buddhist teachings are very similar to the teachings of Christ... no not the foul hate spewed from many televangelist but the true message... very cool

I also just LOVE that quote, heh!

Marb

[Leonaerd]

I have several Catholic friends who think I'm a heathen for marrying a Buddhist without forcing him to convert, but I don't fake orgasms and he doesn't fake Catholicism.

I think it's very admirable that 1 you have held on to your Faith and secondly that you guys make this work. Truly Buddhist teachings are very similar to the teachings of Christ... no not the foul hate spewed from many televangelist but the true message... very cool

I also just LOVE that quote, heh!

Marb

Omg isn't Jesus sooooo awesome??

[Kaldaur]

Thanks for your contribution to this thread Leonaerd.

[Leonaerd]

Thanks for your contribution to this thread Leonaerd.

Just make her do something equally retarded. The strip club suggestion is funny but not all that far off.

Every time you go to church, she watches this video afterwards.

die. Did you watch the video?