It takes a fellow Vet to call out Kerry

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 23, 2004, 6:50 pm

Dole's getting a bit senile but he still deserves his say especially as a recipient of a major wound in WW2.

Dole suggests Kerry apologize
Targets candidate's 1971 testimony of alleged atrocities
Monday, August 23, 2004 Posted: 3:38 AM EDT (0738 GMT)

CRAWFORD, Texas (AP) -- Former Republican Sen. Bob Dole suggested Sunday that John Kerry apologize for past testimony before Congress about alleged atrocities during the Vietnam War and joined critics of the Democratic presidential candidate who say he received an early exit from combat for "superficial wounds."

Dole, the GOP candidate for president in 1996, also called on Kerry to release all the records of his service in Vietnam.

Appearing on CNN's "Late Edition," Dole said he warned Kerry months ago about going "too far" and that the Democrat may have himself to blame for the current situation, in which polls show him losing support among veterans.

"One day he's saying that we were shooting civilians, cutting off their ears, cutting off their heads, throwing away his medals or his ribbons," Dole said. "The next day he's standing there, 'I want to be president because I'm a Vietnam veteran.'

"Maybe he should apologize to all the other 2.5 million veterans who served. He wasn't the only one in Vietnam," said Dole, whose World War II wounds left him without the use of his right arm.

Dole added: "And here's, you know, a good guy, a good friend. I respect his record. But three Purple Hearts and never bled that I know of. I mean, they're all superficial wounds. Three Purple Hearts and you're out."

I'm sure what Dole wanted to say was, "What a pussy" and he has the right to being a war veteran himself. I'd guess quite a few veterens are upset with Kerry using Vietnam, his medals and injuries as he has. Especially the ones that didn't beg for purple hearts and stayed with more severe wounds more than 3 months. Again, it's fabulous that Kerry got his medals and went to Vietnam but the way he's using the medals and service time in his campaign is disgusting.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 23, 2004, 7:11 pm

Another point to this is Dole rarely talks about his experience and injury in WW2 but here is what happened:

A native of Russell, Kansas, Dole enlisted in the U.S. Army in 1942 while a sophomore at the University of Kansas. Eager for new experiences, Dole transferred to the Army Specialized Training Program in New York City. He graduated two years later as a Second Lieutenant and was sent to Italy in the middle of World War II.

While leading a platoon against the Nazi forces, Dole saw his radio man get hit and go down. Dodging enemy fire, Dole rushed to the man’s side. While trying to help the downed soldier, Dole was hit by mortar fire and seriously injured.

Following many surgeries and years of rehabilitation, his right arm was partially paralyzed. For his heroism, Dole was honored with two Purple Hearts and the Bronze Star Medal.

Seems Dole has done at minimum the equivilant of what Kerry has and was far more damaged yet he didn't use it like Kerry for political gain during his run for the presidency. I have far far more respect for that.

Brotha · Post by **Brotha** » August 23, 2004, 7:13 pm

Winnow how dare you question John Kerry's patriotism?!

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 23, 2004, 7:15 pm

Honest question Winnow: As a Bush Fanboi worse than most Blizzard fanbois.. do you seriously think Bush wouldn't have used any military service to his advantage even after the whole aircraft carrier stunt etc?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 23, 2004, 8:05 pm

Kelshara wrote:Honest question Winnow: As a Bush Fanboi worse than most Blizzard fanbois.. do you seriously think Bush wouldn't have used any military service to his advantage even after the whole aircraft carrier stunt etc?

Not really. Even Bush Sr's WW2 history wasn't a focus point of his campaign like Kerry is trying to use his for.

Crav · Post by **Crav** » August 23, 2004, 8:50 pm

Yes because I take the word of someone who wasn't there over people who were. Bob Dole has a right to his opinion on John Kerry, but I have a right to ignore the opinion of someone with no medical training and who didn't see the wounds received for Kerry's purple hearts. Kerry called Dole in person and Dole apologized for the wording of his statement, but wasn't going to take back his opinion. I love someone who talks tough when not face to face, but when called out they tone down their language.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 23, 2004, 9:30 pm

Winnow wrote:
Kelshara wrote:Honest question Winnow: As a Bush Fanboi worse than most Blizzard fanbois.. do you seriously think Bush wouldn't have used any military service to his advantage even after the whole aircraft carrier stunt etc?
Not really. Even Bush Sr's WW2 history wasn't a focus point of his campaign like Kerry is trying to use his for.

interesting you brought this up. A non-affiliated group launched a smear effort on Bush Sr.'s military record - lieing about his crash over the Pacific - during the 1988 campaign.

Michael Dukakis immediately spoke out against the commercial, and the controvery fizzled. Perhaps Bush Jr. learned 2 lessons from that.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » August 23, 2004, 9:42 pm

Oops

So what actuaolly becomes a presidential issue once this nonsense of a vet glorifying his service and a non-vet glorifying his non-service by attacking someone else's, end?

Seriously, why the fuck do people support Cheney's puppet agenda from a security standpoint? It's not helping anyone. It sure as hell isn't protecting anyone. You can be damn sure it's not helping out the global environment... or being viewed as a world leader or ... helping those most in need... or helping the futherment of our own progressive growth

Siji · Post by **Siji** » August 24, 2004, 9:27 am

Perhaps because as long as they're trying to make people question Kerry's military truthfulness or his supposed overuse of his previous record - people aren't paying attention to the massive mountain of bullshit that Bush has done that would take even more votes away.

Watch the hand waving off to the side, not the gun pointed at your face.

Deward · Post by **Deward** » August 24, 2004, 9:41 am

The thing I don't like about Kerry is that he did everything in his power to speak out against the Vietnam war and said some pretty bad things about other veterans at the time. Now he is trying to capitalize on his war experience for his politics. This doesn't mean I am voting for Bush though. I still plan to vote Libertarian.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 24, 2004, 9:48 am

Deward wrote:The thing I don't like about Kerry is that he did everything in his power to speak out against the Vietnam war and said some pretty bad things about other veterans at the time. Now he is trying to capitalize on his war experience for his politics. This doesn't mean I am voting for Bush though. I still plan to vote Libertarian.

I voted for Perot in 1992. It had the effect of being a vote for Clinton. I feel like a tramp now.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » August 24, 2004, 9:51 am

Congradulations, you've managed to completely devote all your attention to Kerry's military career and not focus a smidgen to what issues he supports. Way to go, you've now become a member of the Press. This by far is the best issue-dodging campaign idea i've seen yet. Neither canidate has had to actually speak out against any issues since they have been concentrating on this military scandal and mud-slinging. This shows great promise for the futre.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · August 24, 2004, 10:02 am

Sylvos wrote:Congradulations, you've managed to completely devote all your attention to Kerry's military career and not focus a smidgen to what issues he supports. Way to go, you've now become a member of the Press. This by far is the best issue-dodging campaign idea i've seen yet. Neither canidate has had to actually speak out against any issues since they have been concentrating on this military scandal and mud-slinging. This shows great promise for the futre.

I heard a pundit last night talking about how this could actually be a plan by Dems to disgust the independants and undecideds so much that they won't even bother voting because they are so disgusted with the both candidates. Could just be a republican conspiracy theory, but does sound feasible in the land of politics.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 24, 2004, 10:42 am

Conspiracy theory! Now the men in the black van will come for you! Watch out for those black helicopters!

Canoe · Post by **Canoe** » August 24, 2004, 10:47 am

Kelshara wrote:Conspiracy theory! Now the men in the black van will come for you! Watch out for those black helicopters!

OOOOHH!! B.A. Baracus is coming back!

I haven't seen the A-Team in years!

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 24, 2004, 11:34 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Sylvos wrote:Congradulations, you've managed to completely devote all your attention to Kerry's military career and not focus a smidgen to what issues he supports. Way to go, you've now become a member of the Press. This by far is the best issue-dodging campaign idea i've seen yet. Neither canidate has had to actually speak out against any issues since they have been concentrating on this military scandal and mud-slinging. This shows great promise for the futre.
I heard a pundit last night talking about how this could actually be a plan by Dems to disgust the independants and undecideds so much that they won't even bother voting because they are so disgusted with the both candidates. Could just be a republican conspiracy theory, but does sound feasible in the land of politics.

Yes Kerry's plan is to have republicans try to smear him. He must be using some mind control device, maybe a moon mounted giant laser. Put on your tin hat Mid.

The real genius in your theory is stating Kerry's motivation is to dissuade independents from voting. The last poll breaking out independents that I saw had Kerry leading by 12 points.

Avestan · Post by **Avestan** » August 24, 2004, 12:21 pm

Chidoro wrote:Cheney's puppet agenda

Please explain Cheney's puppet agenda to meh.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » August 24, 2004, 1:49 pm

Cheney is the real president and Dubya is a puppet. Anyone can see this.
And besides there's no proof it isn't true so it must be true.

Brotha · Post by **Brotha** » August 24, 2004, 2:39 pm

Sylvos wrote:Congradulations, you've managed to completely devote all your attention to Kerry's military career and not focus a smidgen to what issues he supports. Way to go, you've now become a member of the Press. This by far is the best issue-dodging campaign idea i've seen yet. Neither canidate has had to actually speak out against any issues since they have been concentrating on this military scandal and mud-slinging. This shows great promise for the futre.

The only person to blame for this is Kerry. Did you hear his speech at the DNC? How much of that was devoted to Vietnam and how much was to issues? Kerry's main platform is that he served as a Lt. of a swiftboat for four months of combat in Vietnam 35 years ago.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 24, 2004, 3:03 pm

Well it is actually kind of a natural response to Bush playing heavily on the war on terror and his visit to the carrier etc. You can't let that go unanswered or you would have zero chance.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 24, 2004, 3:26 pm

Kelshara wrote:Well it is actually kind of a natural response to Bush playing heavily on the war on terror and his visit to the carrier etc. You can't let that go unanswered or you would have zero chance.

By your logic Kerry might as well throw in the towel. His attempt to answer Bush's perceived advantage is a miserable failure thus leaving Kerry with less than a "zero chance".

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 24, 2004, 3:26 pm

That is all in the eye of the beholder. And if you said anything else I would fall off my chair in surprise.

Fesuni Chopsui · Post by **Fesuni Chopsui** » August 24, 2004, 4:12 pm

Hopefully Dole will fall off a stage again and actually die this time

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » August 24, 2004, 4:34 pm

I am just amazed that the GOPers are pushing this issue so damn hard when the credibility of these men they have obviously bribed is so easy to undermine. Not only that, but if I were GW, the last thing I would want a focus on is what the canadates were doing during the Vietnam war, especially considering no one can even confirm he existed during the time period in question and there is some strong indication that he was snorting coke at the time. Are the GOP issues really so fucking bad that the eventual beating they are going to take on this side show (and there will be a backlash in the debates, if not before) is actually less than if they were being taken to the mat on real issues? I mean, even if Kerry was not as deserving of his medals as the official accounts suggest (and all verifiable evidence supports the contention that they were merrited) he still ACTUALLY SHOWED UP FOR DUTY AND EVEN SET FOOT IN VIETNAM. Bush couldn't even be bothered to show up to the rich boy fly club unit his dad bought him into. I just don't even know what the GOP strategists are even thinking pushing this angle, when the Dems were laying off of it.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 24, 2004, 4:39 pm

Jice Virago wrote:I just don't even know what the GOP strategists are even thinking pushing this angle, when the Dems were laying off of it.

If you saw the Demo Convention, they were not laying off of it. Prime time hoopla over the swiftboat crew etc.

And as for Vietnam, it doesn't matter. Look at Clinton. He admitted he dodged Vietnam and he's a sweetheart to most americans. Bush has one position while Kerry waffles between two on this issue. That is the main reason the republicans can beat this one to death and Bush won't lose any points.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » August 24, 2004, 4:49 pm

If you think Bush isnt going to take a beating on this one, you obviously also think that Bush will win the debates too. If I were Kerry, I would hammer his gold bricking ass right out of the gates asking why he bailed out on his term right before a scheduled drug test and watch him melt like the fat german guy at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark. That is only one of the many pitfalls the GOP are rushing towards persuing this path.

As for Clinton....
1) He was a draft dodger and a pot smoker. Score one for Dole. The fact that Clinton lied about these things is not what infuriates the GOP so massively, its the fact that they expended so much effort catching him at something so trivial and the average person didn't give a rats ass. But Dole totally owned him on the issue of military service, hands down.

2) The Clinton election/impeachment is FUCKING OVER. You lost both. Deal with it. I know you Neocons love to live in the past, as shown by your technological and social policy, but for fucks sake just let it go. You don't hear liberals going on and on about how Reagan sold guns to get hostages released to win against Carter and lied about it, which is a hell of a lot more serious than lying about getting a blowjob from an intern. Seriously, let it go. Its like listening to some old drunk fucker at a bar talk about how he got robbed in his High School State football championships.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 24, 2004, 4:58 pm

Jice Virago wrote:If you think Bush isnt going to take a beating on this one, you obviously also think that Bush will win the debates too. If I were Kerry, I would hammer his gold bricking ass right out of the gates asking why he bailed out on his term right before a scheduled drug test and watch him melt like the fat german guy at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark. That is only one of the many pitfalls the GOP are rushing towards persuing this path.

As for Clinton....
1) He was a draft dodger and a pot smoker. Score one for Dole. The fact that Clinton lied about these things is not what infuriates the GOP so massively, its the fact that they expended so much effort catching him at something so trivial and the average person didn't give a rats ass. But Dole totally owned him on the issue of military service, hands down.

2) The Clinton election/impeachment is FUCKING OVER. You lost both. Deal with it. I know you Neocons love to live in the past, as shown by your technological and social policy, but for fucks sake just let it go. You don't hear liberals going on and on about how Reagan sold guns to get hostages released to win against Carter and lied about it, which is a hell of a lot more serious than lying about getting a blowjob from an intern. Seriously, let it go. Its like listening to some old drunk fucker at a bar talk about how he got robbed in his High School State football championships.

I agree with Jice on the Clinton thing. The debates however will be interesting. I'm not so sure Kerry will dominate Bush. His slow, loud, saying a lot while saying nothing, way of speaking may even out the stuttering, "errrr", type Bush speak.

I eagerly await to see who comes out of these debates looking stronger. Of course, the dems will think Kerry and the Republicans will think Bush, but I alone will report on the real truth. /wink

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 24, 2004, 5:00 pm

Jice Virago wrote:...you obviously also think that Bush will win the debates too.

Bush will win.

Bush just needs to walk out of the room without having made a fool of himself.

Kerry has to actually WIN. The pressure is on Kerry to deliver. He won't - because he can't.

(As an interesting side note, what person could both of us believe to deliver an honest verdict regards the winner of the debate?)

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 24, 2004, 5:02 pm

I don't think you would agree if Cheney walked up to you and said "Damn Bush got owned there!" You both are way too set in your supports.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 24, 2004, 5:18 pm

Kelshara wrote:I don't think you would agree if Cheney walked up to you and said "Damn Bush got owned there!" You both are way too set in your supports.

I am a strong Bush supporter but I'm not blind.

You on the other hand are obviously willing and able to judge people based on sketchy and imcomplete information.

Just for the record, my support for Bush is largely based on his actions during the last 4 years. I was not a Bush supporter during the primaries leading up to the 2000 elections. I did vote for him however when the general election came around.

As recently as yesterday Bush pissed me off. I would like to have Bush quietly affirm his earlier position on 527 groups. Instead he gave the Democrats some more wiggle room. What part of keeping his mouth shut doesn't he understand?

Pissed off as I am, I still believe Bush is much more competent and honest than Mr. Kerry.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 24, 2004, 5:54 pm

I judge you on your track record on this board, where you fit quite nicely in along with Midnyte, Cartalas and a couple of others heh.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » August 24, 2004, 5:56 pm

Metanis wrote:Pissed off as I am, I still believe Bush is much more competent and honest than Mr. Kerry.

He's either competent and a liar, or incompetent and honest. Take your pick.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » August 24, 2004, 6:32 pm

Neither side has a candidate that should be president. Neither side has produced a compelling argument to support their choices. Teh best thing for the USA is not Bush or Kerry, it would be an act of voter nullification in which no one votes for either of them and forces both parties to go back and try again.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 24, 2004, 6:40 pm

Lynks wrote:
Metanis wrote:Pissed off as I am, I still believe Bush is much more competent and honest than Mr. Kerry.
He's either competent and a liar, or incompetent and honest. Take your pick.

Since either choice you provide is 50% better than John Kerry I will assume you are converting to Bushism?

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » August 24, 2004, 6:42 pm

I think that Kerry is competent and a liar and that Bush is incompetent and a honest. Both suck, and both lead down a different path. But I still think that a vote for Kerry is a vote for the longer road to hell.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » August 24, 2004, 6:55 pm

Metanis wrote:Bush just needs to walk out of the room without having made a fool of himself.

.... which also happens to be something he has failed to do in any unscripted public speaking event in his entire presidency. There are many options for even someone with basic debating skills to catch him off guard and thereby feed him his own ass on national TV. I imagine that the GOP will want to restrict the debates as heavily as they can to minimize the damage.

As for who could serve as a neutral party, I would say honestly I will be looking for the opinions of three men on the debates when they are done. Two, John McCain and Newt Gingritch, are republicans. The third will be the Daily Show. For the average joe, I would suggest the BBC as probably the most unbiased (non comedy) news source, since a foreign western news service has no vested interest in american politics.

Brotha · Post by **Brotha** » August 24, 2004, 10:02 pm

Jice Virago wrote:.... which also happens to be something he has failed to do in any unscripted public speaking event in his entire presidency. There are many options for even someone with basic debating skills to catch him off guard and thereby feed him his own ass on national TV. I imagine that the GOP will want to restrict the debates as heavily as they can to minimize the damage.

This is hilarious. John Kerry on the daily show tonight:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f ... =printable

When the conversation turned serious, Stewart asked Kerry how he would counter Bush's ability in debates to turn issues into a choice between his position and the opposition.

Kerry said the debates would be a challenge. "The president has won every debate he's ever had," Kerry said. "He beat Ann Richards. He beat Al Gore. So, he's a good debater."

I wonder what would happen if he debated someone with "basic debating skills" though.

Adelrune Argenti · Post by **Adelrune Argenti** » August 24, 2004, 10:22 pm

Perhaps Bush should just let him win the debates to show how much of a good sport he is. I mean that is what we should all do. Roll over and take it so you can be seen as sportsmanlike.

Crav · Post by **Crav** » August 24, 2004, 10:30 pm

Brotha wrote:
When the conversation turned serious, Stewart asked Kerry how he would counter Bush's ability in debates to turn issues into a choice between his position and the opposition.

Kerry said the debates would be a challenge. "The president has won every debate he's ever had," Kerry said. "He beat Ann Richards. He beat Al Gore. So, he's a good debater."
I wonder what would happen if he debated someone with "basic debating skills" though.

From everything that I remember about the debates everyone felt that Gore was picking on Bush, that Gore was being too intellectual or something along those lines. That Gore just wanted it too much that he was too prepared since he actually knew the people that he was talking about. I could be wrong on this though. The debates this time around will be interesting.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 24, 2004, 10:38 pm

also everything that came out of bush's mouth during the debates turned out not only to be a bald faced lie, but actually the opposite of what he's done before. of course anyone can win a debate if they are just going to lie.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 24, 2004, 11:15 pm

kyoukan wrote:also everything that came out of bush's mouth during the debates turned out not only to be a bald faced lie, but actually the opposite of what he's done before. of course anyone can win a debate if they are just going to lie.

Bush's overambitious goals will counter Kerry's waffles. Kerry can say anything as he usually ends up on both sides of every issue.

Bush can lead off by expressing his desire to revamp our tax system. Kerry can counter by saying how unrealistic that is but is won't matter as it sounds good to the viewers.

A surprise announcement by Bush during the debate that Bin Laden has been captured and that there is life on Mars and his new plan to send a manned mission to Mars should clinch it for Bush!

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » August 24, 2004, 11:16 pm

Winnow wrote: A surprise announcement by Bush during the debate that Bin Laden has been captured...

I'll make a bet with you if you want. 20 VVs. I bet that they already have Bin Laden, and are actually just waiting for the right time to "capture" him.

-=Lohrno

Midnyte_Ragebringer · August 25, 2004, 12:08 am

Lohrno wrote:
Winnow wrote: A surprise announcement by Bush during the debate that Bin Laden has been captured...
I'll make a bet with you if you want. 20 VVs. I bet that they already have Bin Laden, and are actually just waiting for the right time to "capture" him.

-=Lohrno

For the safety of Americans, I hope you're right.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » August 25, 2004, 12:23 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Lohrno wrote:
Winnow wrote: A surprise announcement by Bush during the debate that Bin Laden has been captured...
I'll make a bet with you if you want. 20 VVs. I bet that they already have Bin Laden, and are actually just waiting for the right time to "capture" him.

-=Lohrno
For the safety of Americans, I hope you're right.

noooo, for the safety of americans, if they have him they "capture him now", not wait until the right time for political gain

open your mind dude, seriously

Midnyte_Ragebringer · August 25, 2004, 12:30 am

Xzion wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Lohrno wrote:
Winnow wrote: A surprise announcement by Bush during the debate that Bin Laden has been captured...
I'll make a bet with you if you want. 20 VVs. I bet that they already have Bin Laden, and are actually just waiting for the right time to "capture" him.

-=Lohrno
For the safety of Americans, I hope you're right.
noooo, for the safety of americans, if they have him they "capture him now", not wait until the right time for political gain

open your mind dude, seriously

Either way, I like the notion he is being held by us. But, he is most likely formulating more attacks on Americans. More 9/11's are coming our way. I only hope our intelligence agencies can continue to thwart as many as possible.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » August 25, 2004, 12:31 am

If they had Osama Bin Laden it would already have leaked.

You think the incompetent buffoons that run our intelligence agencies could handle a secret of that scope? What, are you fucking stupid, of course we do not have him yet.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » August 25, 2004, 3:08 am

People think Bob Dole is relevant...since when?

Siji · Post by **Siji** » August 25, 2004, 10:50 am

Pherr the Dorf wrote:People think Bob Dole is relevant...since when?

Since Viagra got popular..

Niffoni · Post by **Niffoni** » August 25, 2004, 11:09 am

nono... relevant.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » August 25, 2004, 11:21 am

Niffoni wrote:nono... relevant.

Uhhh...since...the Pepsi commercial?