Silva and the rest

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Pherr the Dorf
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Silva and the rest

Post by Pherr the Dorf »

Silva looks really really good, like exceptional, so people boo him.
Silvia looks boring and will continue to hurt the UFC.
The judges are still fucktards.
The UFC looks more devoid of talent on these cards then it did a few years ago which is odd.
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Re: Silva and the rest

Post by Kwonryu DragonFist »

Silva will prolly keep the title for how long he wants. :)

Unless there comes a new talent from outta nowhere with exepctional skills, but for now, i don't see anyone threatening his spot.

Pitiful to see how so many UFC-fans are sheep though with all the booing.

Silva showed a godly display and masterful technique both times and still gets boos. Some people are hard to please.
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Re: Silva and the rest

Post by Abelard »

Too bad they don't bring in some Chinese martial artists that have been training all their lives. Would be pretty cool to see a little shrimpy guy decimate some of UFC's top people.
Last edited by Abelard on October 22, 2007, 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Silva and the rest

Post by Breagen »

Seriously?
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Re: Silva and the rest

Post by Abelard »

Yeah mate, have you ever seen a career Muay Thai fighter? People who have spent decades training it? They're absolutely sick.
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Re: Silva and the rest

Post by Breagen »

Ok that is a lot different. Professional MT fighters are similar to kickboxing etc. From your original post I thought you were referring to some type of Karate or Kung Fu expert, and I think we all know how well they've done in the world of MMA.
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Re: Silva and the rest

Post by Pherr the Dorf »

Breagen wrote:Ok that is a lot different. Professional MT fighters are similar to kickboxing etc. From your original post I thought you were referring to some type of Karate or Kung Fu expert, and I think we all know how well they've done in the world of MMA.
Professional MT fighters get some training in other forms and find themselves in the ring all the time. Anderson Silva is a MT fighter, he is doing quite well, quite a few others have not done so well. A single styled fighter will always get destroyed in the MMA ring no matter how long he trained.
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Re: Silva and the rest

Post by Breagen »

I'm not sure why you are quoting my post as the point I was making in response to Abelard is that single style martial artists lose to MMA fighters, as alluded to in the second line.

I was under the mistaken impression he was implying that a classical martial artist such as a Kung Fu or Tae Kwon Do practitioner would defeat an MMA fighter.
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Re: Silva and the rest

Post by Somali »

I've seen a few little 65+ year old 4.5 foot chinese dudes that I would bet on against any MMA fighter if he was willing to step in the ring. The last one I saw teaching moved faster than anyone I've ever seen and he _launched_ a 6' 245lb student that was going through Iron Shirt training accross the room with an open hand strike to the solo plexes. (It would be important to note that I have previously seen said 6' individual take running jumpkicks from 180lb students and barely move.) I should probably clarify launched too. it sounds a little more dramatic than it really was. He hit him, took him off his feet to land on his back and his feet moved approx 3-4 feet from their original position.

The problem is that most "serious" single style fighters that practiced all their lives and have his level of skill would not fight in that type of contest. not because they couldn't win, but because they aren't looking for that type of self gratification.

Note: I'm not saying I don't enjoy watching these guys fight. I think its awesome to see there level of talent and what they do at their level. I do not however think we are seeing the best of the best, we're just seeing the best of the ones willing to fight.
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Re: Silva and the rest

Post by Cracc »

Im sorry, but any single styled martial artist that would step up against a well trained/rounded MMA fighter would get _destroyed_ in seconds.

Usually it would end something like this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I


I know that it sounds cool that some of these guys claim to have trained all their lives within some secret super effective martial art as a hermit on a mountaintop somewhere, but the fact remains, if you dont crosstrain in complementing styles and never sparr, you wont have a shadow of a chance against someone who does.

A perfect example would be this video:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=S19VsB7__v0

Both of these men have probably trained all their lives, wich makes it all the more sad.
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Re: Silva and the rest

Post by Abelard »

Haha, come on cracc! In that first video the 'master' is at least 20 years older than the MMA fighter. No comment on the 1953 video besides the fact that you have no real idea if they're masters / been training all their lives or not.

If someone took the time to look (which I'm not about too) I'm sure they could find videos proving the opposite.
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Re: Silva and the rest

Post by Breagen »

It's easy to say that they exist without actually finding them to prove the point. It's ridiculous to assert that a martial arts master who has never demonstrated any real fighting ability would destroy an MMA fighter who earns their living by fighting in contests with limited rules. All of the examples people throw around about seeing some martial arts master dominate someone always turns out to be a master and one of their students since they mysteriously refuse to ever actually attempt to fight or even spar against someone who they have not trained for various reasons.

The few cases I've seen of someone willing to just spar with a MMA or similar fighter always end up with a litany of excuses about how they aren't doing things right or aren't allowing the martial arts master to do whatever thing he is trying to do. This is assuming they don't just immediately go with the ultimate excuse of "I don't want to use my death touch/killing blow/etc on you".

The onus of providing proof is on the people making wild claims about guys that have been training for forty years in a dojo on a mountain somewhere beating guys that have demonstrated a real mastery of actual combat skills in arenas around the world. Many of the old Brazilian fighters like Wanderlei Silva even used to participate in no holds barred street fighting years ago but I guess that actual real life fighting experience wouldn't hold up against someone that's been running around shadowboxing by themselves for years.
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Re: Silva and the rest

Post by Somali »

You could be correct. I still maintain that the ones I believe might actually be competetive with MMA style martial arts would not seek out a fight with them. There is obviously a difference in smacking the shit out of a student and "the real thing"TM. I won't argue that, but I also won't say that MMA automatically pwns single style martial arts by someone who has perfected their technique. The second video looks like more of a spoof than anything else. If its a real video I would have to question the sanity of the "Kai Master."
The I don't want to use my "death touch" thing definitely does sound like a cop out. That said, it is possible that the "mastah" might hold back in an effort to not injure an opponent he underestimated, whereas the MMA fighter might go full bore to KO the "mastah" as fast a possible. There are a lot of variables.

I would agree that an MMA fighter has a serious advantage over someone practicing a single art for equal timeframes.

MMA vs single style fighter who has only ever sparred against his own technique
I'd give this one to the MMA fighter almost every time without a second thought because he has a wider breadth of experience.

MMA vs single style fighter with experience fighting multiple techniques (?)
This one I would not give an automatic victory to the MMA fighter. Then again you could argue that the single style fighter picked up techniques from other martial artists he'd encountered and became an MMA himself. /shrug. Fighters have to adapt and learn from previous encounters or they can't grow.

And still, I would argue that a single style martial artist that was good enough to challenge an MMA would be unlikely to challenge the MMA. (Being good enough doesn't require you to live on a mountain, but the better ones I've seen do all seem to have a fairly zen attitude.)
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Re: Silva and the rest

Post by Fairweather Pure »

Somali wrote:Fighters have to adapt and learn from previous encounters or they can't grow.
That really is the problem with your initial assertion. Martial arts people rarely actually fight people, while MMA fighters do it day in and day out with some rather hardcore "hands on" training. The MMA fighters have loads of opponents to actually fight and learn from over the course of thier career. They are trained for some brutal scenerios.

I would pick an experianced MMA over any other type of single style "trained" fighter; martial arts or otherwise.
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Re: Silva and the rest

Post by Pherr the Dorf »

MMA exists because single style fighting does not work, there is always a weakness to one style, hence the idea of mixing them to minimize the weakness in one primary fighting style. There has always been MMA from back to the catch wrestling fighters and before.The first modern MMA style was founded by Bruce Lee (certainly the first very public MMA styled athlete), currently there are many schools of thought about how to best round out a fighter to combat another fighter. Sambo and BJJ being popular for their ground work, MT for strikes with both hands and feet, catch wrestling, judo and Sambo again for their takedowns. The only fighter currently who does not really mix his styles that much is Fedor but he is a Sambo fighter and Sambo is Russian MMA/catch wrestling/judo.

A non rounded fighter is a cupcake no matter how well he may know a single style... unless that style is simply knocking someone the fuck out, a pure puncher always has a chance.
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Re: Silva and the rest

Post by Somali »

Well from a fight perspective I'd go with joint locks and grapples being the key differentiators. At some point a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick. After that, its a matter of whether you punch/kick is faster/stronger than your opponent's ability to block/dodge/counter. Understanding how to counteract grappling and locks is a very valid differentiator though. Once they've got you, if you don't know how to get out, your pretty well fucked.

I'll concede the point that 95% of the time the MMA guy will beat the single style fighter. Most of the remaining 5% would be a lucky shot early fight. I'm just not quite willing to dismiss the little old asian dudes out of hand though. I have seen them first hand do wierd shit that I would not expect for their size, and none of them move in the lethargic manner of the guy in the linked video. In truth, I've had problems following their hand movements when they really get going. Then again I haven't so much as sparred in a very long time. I would expect a trained fighter to keep up much better than myself but I've yet to see anyone in MMA do anything that I couldn't follow with my eyes. Then again, grappling doesn't need to be fast to be effective. Neither does hitting someone with a punch that feels like you've been hit by a sledgehammer.
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Re: Silva and the rest

Post by Menelaos »

Please don't be ignorant. Lyoto Machida is a "Single-style" fighter who happens to be undefeated in his career to this point. They claim he is a BJJ black or brown belt but you never see him on the ground. He simply avoids takedowns a la the sprawl and good footwork. He is a single-minded Kyokushin Karate fighter who simply kicks ass.

Royce Gracie, single style BJJ artist, was successful in his time. Coleman, single styled greco roman wrestler, was successful in his time. Hidehiko Yoshida, judo artist, was "successful" and effective. The list fucking goes on and on...

Liu Hailong, single styled Sanshou fighter, very successful. Just because you don't see them or you don't know about them, doesn't mean they don't exist. The world dont revolve around YOU :)

It's not a matter of styles if you ask me, or what you train. You can make any style or art effective, if YOU simply have talent and instinct, and train hard and spar and keep yourself in tip top shape. We've all seen that a fighter's BEST weapon is not his fists or his style, but his CONDITIONING and physical abilities.

You can be dominant in any style simply if you were born with athletic ability and a brain.
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Re: Silva and the rest

Post by Cracc »

I think your missing the point here Menelaos, every single one of those fighters you mentioned crosstrains or has crosstrained in diffrent styles to be able to cover the whole range of skills needed to be able to compete in MMA.


Hell, speaking of Royce gracie. The Gracies Vs Sakuraba fights was one of the first matches that _proved_ you needed crosstrain to be successful against any fighter.
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Re: Silva and the rest

Post by Cracc »

And afaik Liu Hailong hasnt fought any MMA matches. He's Chinas posterboy for fighting MT fighters.

Also, sanshou is the chinese equivalent of sambo ( with focus not so much on grappling tho ), and has elements of a lot of diffrent styles incorporated into it.
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