Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Support, Discussion, Reviews
User avatar
Winnow
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 27525
Joined: July 5, 2002, 1:56 pm
Location: A Special Place in Hell

Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Winnow »

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/techn ... phone.html
January 7, 2012

The Critics Rave ... for Microsoft?

By NICK WINGFIELD

REDMOND, Wash.

“GORGEOUS,” raves The Huffington Post.

“Best-looking smartphone operating system in the industry,” gushes Slate.

“Far superior to most if not all the Android smartphones,” says TechCrunch.

Sounds like the usual adulation for a gadget from Apple. In fact, they’re actually accolades for a new product from Microsoft.

Microsoft?

Exactly. Long ridiculed as the tech industry dullard, Microsoft actually has a hit, at least with the technorati. It’s cellphone software called Windows Phone — and they need it to be a blockbuster here at Microsoft Central.

Yes, Windows and Office products are ubiquitous and highly profitable. But they’re about as inspirational as a stapler. While the likes of Apple have captured our imaginations with nifty products like the iPhone, Microsoft has produced a long list of flops, from smart wristwatches to the Zune music player to the Kin phones. Steve Jobs used to deride Microsoft for a lack of originality. In his opinion, the company didn’t bring “much culture” to its products. With Windows Phone, though, Microsoft is finally getting some buzz.

“I am a devoted Apple fan — I was in line for the iPhone,” said Axel Roesler, assistant professor for interaction design at the University of Washington in Seattle, but Windows Phone “strikes me as quite different and an advance.”

Windows Phone, which began appearing in devices last fall, certainly stands out visually. It has bold, on-screen typography and a mosaic of animated tiles on the home screen — a stark departure from the neat grid of icons made popular by the iPhone. While most phones force users to open stand-alone apps to get into social networks, Facebook and Twitter are wired into Windows Phone. The tiles spring to life as friends or family post fresh pictures, text messages and status updates.

Even so, relatively few consumers have been tempted, and sales have been lackluster. A big problem is that, initially, the handsets running Microsoft’s software, made by companies like HTC and Samsung, were unexceptional. Even more important, wireless carriers, the gatekeepers for nearly all mobile phones, have not been aggressively selling Windows phones in their stores. Most promote the iPhone and devices running Google’s Android operating system.

And so Microsoft has struck a partnership with Nokia, and executives at both companies have high hopes that their handsets will catch on with consumers. On Monday at the International Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, Nokia plans to introduce a sleek metallic Windows Phone called the Lumia 900 that will be sold by AT&T in the United States, according to two people with knowledge of its plans who spoke on condition of anonymity because the product has not yet been announced. Unlike other handset makers creating devices with Microsoft’s software, Nokia is not also developing Android phones.

“We are doing our best work for Windows Phone,” said Stephen Elop, the chief executive of Nokia and a former Microsoft executive.

While the customers’ verdict is still unknown, the group that developed Windows Phone has already profoundly affected Microsoft itself, influencing work on other consumer products. The next major version of software for PC’s, Windows 8, will look a lot like Windows Phone, which Microsoft hopes will help it work better on tablet devices. A Windows Phone-like makeover was also part of the new software update for Xbox, which along with Kinect is one of Microsoft’s few consumer hits.

Bill Flora, one of the designers of Windows Phone, said the care that Microsoft took in designing its products had changed vastly since he joined the company out of art school in the early 1990s.

“Now, instead of 80 percent of its efforts being unenlightened, just 20 percent are unenlightened,” said Mr. Flora, who recently left Microsoft to form his own design firm in Seattle.

THE tale of how Microsoft created Windows Phone starts with the introduction of the iPhone, in 2007. To Joe Belfiore, now 43, an engineer who oversees software design for Windows Phone, that was the spark.

“Apple created a sea change in the industry in terms of the kinds of things they did that were unique and highly appealing to consumers,” Mr. Belfiore said in an interview at Microsoft’s campus here. “We wanted to respond with something that would be competitive, but not the same.”

Microsoft had been an early player in smartphones with Windows Mobile, software that ran on devices made by Samsung, Motorola and others. But one word describes its early effort: complicated. Windows Mobile had a complex array of on-screen menus, including a start button for applications that was borrowed from Windows PCs. The software ran on sluggish devices that had physical keyboards and, in some cases, styluses.

Once the iPhone exploded into the marketplace, Microsoft executives knew that their software, as designed, could never compete. So in December 2008, Terry Myerson, who had just taken over engineering for the mobile group, convened a meeting that members of his management team came to call the “cage match.”

With a prototype of a new Windows Mobile phone on a table, Mr. Myerson, a no-nonsense engineer , led a heated debate over whether any of the software could be salvaged. No one was leaving the room until the issue was resolved, he said.

Seven hours later, the meeting finally adjourned, after Mr. Myerson got a call from his wife saying a pipe had frozen at his home. By then, a consensus had emerged that there wasn’t much technology worth saving. “We had hit bottom,” Mr. Myerson, who is now 39.

“That frankly gives you the freedom to try new things, build a new team and set a new path,” he added.

The decision was to start from scratch, a move that had serious consequences. Not only did it delay a Windows phone, it gave Google an opening to woo Microsoft handset partners to Android.

Charlie Kindel, a longtime Microsoft manager who joined its mobile team in early 2009, compared the pain caused by starting over to the predicament of Aron Ralston, the hiker who amputated his own arm in 2003 after it was it pinned under a boulder in the Utah desert.

“This boulder comprised of Apple and Blackberry rolled on our arm,” said Mr. Kindel, who left Microsoft last summer. “Microsoft sat there for three or four years struggling to get out.”

Mr. Myerson also had to rebuild the mobile team — and Mr. Belfiore was his first major hire.

Mr. Belfiore is a rare breed of Microsoft executive: he joined the company in 1990 fresh out of college and stayed, even as others fled to work for companies with more pizazz.

For much of his career, Mr. Belfiore worked on the design of Windows and Internet Explorer, the kind of Microsoft software that is everywhere but not always admired for innovation. But he was also known for spending hours testing Microsoft technologies outside the office to see how they could be simplified.

In recent years, Mr. Belfiore earned a reputation in the company for working on more adventurous projects, even if they sometimes bombed in the market. Before he joined the mobile group, for instance, he oversaw design of Zune, Microsoft’s ill-fated answer to the iPod. A version of the product released in 2009, the Zune HD, was praised by reviewers for its spare design that featured elegant typography and snappy, animated screen transitions as users flipped around music collections. But the Zune HD came out years too late, well after the iPod had cemented its lead.

Mr. Belfiore took over the mobile group in early 2009, just as designers were finishing up the earliest prototypes for Windows Phone. In those prototypes, Mr. Flora drew inspiration from the signs in airports and other transportation hubs. He borrowed the emphasis on clarity, clean typography and broadcast-quality transitions between screens from Zune, which he had worked on with Mr. Belfiore. The ideas gradually gelled into a software design language that Microsoft calls Metro.

But there were challenges beyond design. Microsoft had to take a fresh approach to working with phone makers so it could have its slick new software function properly. Unlike Apple, Microsoft doesn’t make its own hardware. Before it restarted its mobile strategy, Microsoft did little to ensure that its handset partners were putting its software on devices that could run it well.

No longer would that be tolerated. Microsoft gave its handset partners detailed specifications of the types of technical innards required, including processors with certain amounts of power and screen technologies. Handset makers grumbled about the rules, but the result was phones that ran better.

“It’s not just about software,” said Albert Shum, general manager of the design studio for Windows Phone. “It’s about the whole end-to-end experience.”

When senior executives got their first look at the software, Mr. Myerson said, there was “some hesitancy.” Steve Ballmer, Microsoft’s chief executive, didn’t like that the first screen that appeared after turning on the device contained oversized type that cut off the day of the week. (Wednesday showed up as Wed.) Revisions were made.

But the group was given its creative freedom. And the critics, at least, have approved the final results.

“It looks like nothing we’ve seen before from Microsoft,” said Michael Gartenberg, an analyst at Gartner, the technology research firm. “The company is being somewhat bold and saying what worked for them in 1992 won’t work now.”

Still, last summer, Mr. Ballmer told Microsoft investors that he was disappointed with Windows Phone sales. In mid-December, he named Mr. Myerson, the engineering head, to take full control of the group. He charged Mr. Myerson with improving the Windows Phone advertising campaign and relationships with wireless carriers. A software update for Windows Phones in the fall added a number of improvements to the product, including basic editing functions like copy and paste.

BUT this year is crucial; it will show whether a respected product is enough to help Microsoft make up for lost time. Even if it feels good to be a favorite of tech critics for a change, Microsoft needs a blockbuster in the mobile business, not a cult hit.

“Entering the market so late with this experience has created some special challenges for us,” Mr. Myerson said. “I think if we were there earlier it would be different.”
Go Microsoft! It would be nice to have an enticing alternative to IOS. Android is pretty crappy.

Android doesn't know how to handle updates and is too scattered, not to mention it's horrible hack filled marketplace:

Image
Only 0.6-Percent of Android Devices Have Ice Cream Sandwich Installed

It's been over two months since Android 4.0 (Ice Cream Sandwich) launched and the adoption rate is nothing short of pitiful. It's sort of a disaster.

The numbers, posted on Android's developer site, paint a pretty sad picture of adoption rates. The data was gathered during a 14-day survey of Android devices that had accessed the Android Market. 55.5-percent of the devices were running Gingerbread (2.3). The tablet OS, Honeycomb (3.0), only accounted for 3.3-percent of devices to access the site during the time period and Ice Cream Sandwich (4.0) posted 0.6-percent. Froyo, (2.2) which has been out for 20 months, is still chugging along at 30.4-percent.

Because it's up to OEMs to update the software for their devices and push it consumers, it could be a while before those Ice Cream Sandwich numbers start creeping up.


Two months after a new OS release from Apple and a bazillion phones are running it and a gagigabillion would be running at least the previous OS, not two major releases old like with Android.
User avatar
Aabidano
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4861
Joined: July 19, 2002, 2:23 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Florida

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Aabidano »

Winnow wrote:Two months after a new OS release from Apple and a bazillion phones are running it and a gagigabillion would be running at least the previous OS, not two major releases old like with Android.
With the captive HW & user base it's simple for Apple to do a mass upgrade, on Android a lot of the HW likely won't support 4.0 with decent performance. I'm on 2.2.2 and while I could upgrade, I won't unless it's pushed on me. No real reason to.

It's like you're complaining that a user hasn't been upgraded to the latest and greatest code w\ camera support, on a phone that might not even have a camera, just for the epeen benefit.
"Life is what happens while you're making plans for later."
User avatar
Winnow
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 27525
Joined: July 5, 2002, 1:56 pm
Location: A Special Place in Hell

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Winnow »

Aabidano wrote: It's like you're complaining that a user hasn't been upgraded to the latest and greatest code w\ camera support, on a phone that might not even have a camera, just for the epeen benefit.
Except in Apple's case, the latest and greatest is always available, even if there are a few features that an older model can't handle, they still take advantage of the majority of the new OS features and you have a unified user base for developers. If camera support is the only upgrade you get between major releases than Android sucks worse than I thought.

Who's going to develop for Honeycomb? Apple has an outstanding developers program. You have updated versions of apps before the new OS is even released many times. Sorry, it's not a plus that you have such a mass of hardware for Android. The separate companies are lazy and don't upgrade their users in a timely way even when their phones can handle the latest OS. You have all those whacky modified UI's each company tries to throw out making it look like you're getting something unique.

Shit just does not run smoothly on Android, even for the tech dumbasses. Windows looks like it's going to have more control over the hardware. After watching what's happened to Android and IOS over the past few years, that's key to having a solid app based development community where you can actually sell apps. Androids app sales are pathetic. (I'll post about that area after someone's next response)

Android will continue to appeal to the budget "free with plan" crowd that are just happy they were approved to get a contract or are paying some sort of prepay plan. Google doesn't appear t have a clue while Microsoft has taken its licks for being a lazy giant and seems to be back in the game with a solid effort.

I personally think the Windows phone OS home screen looks crappy and don't understand the design when it looks like 25% of the home screen is wasted on the "arrow" black bar area on the right side, but if it works well as it appears to from the article above, they'll quickly become the number 2 preferred platform for developers, even if Android maintains majority with it's hodgepodge of old OS phones due to its cheapness for awhile.
User avatar
Animalor
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 5902
Joined: July 8, 2002, 12:03 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Anirask
PSN ID: Anirask
Location: Canada

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Animalor »

Within 4-6 weeks of Microsoft beginning to roll out Windows Phone 7.5 (Mango), all devices ever sold were being offered the upgrade to the new version of the OS.

What was a first in the phone world by a company that doesn't do both the hardware and software. (I actually upgraded 2 phones to Mango over the holidays for people that run WP7 that I actually didn't push the OS to).
User avatar
Animalor
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 5902
Joined: July 8, 2002, 12:03 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Anirask
PSN ID: Anirask
Location: Canada

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Animalor »

Holy crap.... HTC Titan II LTE. 16 MEGAPIXEL camera...

http://www.theverge.com/2012/1/9/269437 ... ng-to-at-t
User avatar
Funkmasterr
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 9005
Joined: July 7, 2002, 9:12 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Dandelo19
PSN ID: ToPsHoTTa471

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Funkmasterr »

Cool, but it's still a phone camera. I get that the convenience of having a camera in a phone, but if I'm going to take a picture of something I actually care to get a good shot of, I'm going to have my rebel with me.
User avatar
Aabidano
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4861
Joined: July 19, 2002, 2:23 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Florida

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Aabidano »

Winnow wrote:Android will continue to appeal to the budget "free with plan" crowd that are just happy they were approved to get a contract or are paying some sort of prepay plan. Google doesn't appear t have a clue while Microsoft has taken its licks for being a lazy giant and seems to be back in the game with a solid effort.
Agree with you to a point, but you're not comparing like to like at all. Android handsets run a gamut similar to something like a PII-233 to an i3 and are essentially detached from Google, it's an entirely different environment and design paradigm. Might as well complain not all Mazdas can tow a camper just because some Hondas can.

On both sides the 90% or so "non-nerd" user base couldn't care less if they're running the latest and greatest and wouldn't have the slightest idea of how to find out. To them it's just a phone, the iDevice users just get a couple extra smarmypoints within their peer group and a slightly enlarged smug cloud to trail behind them. I hear them extolling the joys of the appstore, yet all they've gotten from it is Angry Birds and a fart grading app.
"Life is what happens while you're making plans for later."
User avatar
Kluden
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1827
Joined: November 13, 2002, 7:12 pm
Location: D.C.

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Kluden »

I really liked the utility and smoothness of the windows phone OS...but sprints one windows phone sucked, so I went with an android phone again last month. I will upgrade it to ICS when HTC makes an official release, and then the home brew crowd puts out a nice ICS rootkit for it.
User avatar
Winnow
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 27525
Joined: July 5, 2002, 1:56 pm
Location: A Special Place in Hell

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Winnow »

I installed the Windows 8 Consumer preview on my iMac using Bootcamp. Smooth install. The only issue was sound driver which was Apple's fault. After tracking down the driver the sound works.

So far it's pretty damn slick. A little more than the switch from XP to Win 7, you need to figure out where stuff is, but after that, this is a smooth operating system. My iMac just became useful!

Microsoft has their shit together on this one. I'd like to use this on a touch device where it shines the most. You can go sort of old school windows if you want until you get used to the new interface. I still think the new desktop looks ugly (on Windows phones and win 8 ) but it sure works well so I think I'll get used to it quickly. There's a lot to discover in Win 8 and so far it's all been positive. I'm sure some grumpy people will whine because they don't want to take a few minutes to learn the new OS. Fuck them. Back to XP with you! Have fun.

Internet Explorer feels like an entire rewrite. It's sweet, especially full screen.

Stuff does open full screen which isn't necessarily a good thing with a monster res of 2560x1440. There is an option to "view on desktop" which gets you back to windowed mode. It looks like they want you using the full screen though which would make sense on smaller touch screens.

Win 8's app store looks nice as well. There's a lot of free apps, similar to iTunes App store. Every app in the store is free it looks like for the preview.
User avatar
Aslanna
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 12372
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Aslanna »

For a desktop, from what I've seen, it looks crappy. It's like the FF XIII-2 of operating systems. I don't see myself upgrading from Windows 7 anytime soon once 8 is released. IF AT ALL!
Have You Hugged An Iksar Today?

--
User avatar
Winnow
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 27525
Joined: July 5, 2002, 1:56 pm
Location: A Special Place in Hell

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Winnow »

Aslanna wrote:For a desktop, from what I've seen, it looks crappy. It's like the FF XIII-2 of operating systems. I don't see myself upgrading from Windows 7 anytime soon once 8 is released. IF AT ALL!

It took you forever to upgrade to Windows 7!

The front page isn't a big deal, just right click and you can see all of your apps on the screen in an orderly fashion. There's also one click to your file explorer, etc. I admit, it looks ugly. Really ugly. But the functionality of the OS is better than what you would think by looking at it. The back end improvements make it worth it.

I still use Directory Opus (ancient build) as my file manager. As long as I have access to that, I don't care much about the rest of the OS for my non touch PC but I do appreciate improvements in the file system, etc.

You should install Windows 8 on your SSD so you can try it out until you upgrade.
User avatar
Canelek
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 9380
Joined: July 3, 2002, 1:23 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Canelek
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Canelek »

I plan on giving Windows 8 a whirl via my MSDN subscription--looking forward to it!

Having worked for IBM for 2 years, I can certainly appreciate Microsoft more now!
en kærlighed småkager
User avatar
Winnow
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 27525
Joined: July 5, 2002, 1:56 pm
Location: A Special Place in Hell

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Winnow »

Canelek wrote:I plan on giving Windows 8 a whirl via my MSDN subscription--looking forward to it!

Having worked for IBM for 2 years, I can certainly appreciate Microsoft more now!
you don't need a MSDN sub for this one. Anyone can try it!

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/wind ... er-preview
User avatar
Canelek
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 9380
Joined: July 3, 2002, 1:23 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Canelek
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Canelek »

Oh I know. I was thinking about trying it out when it is out of CTP.
en kærlighed småkager
User avatar
Winnow
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 27525
Joined: July 5, 2002, 1:56 pm
Location: A Special Place in Hell

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Winnow »

Canelek wrote:Oh I know. I was thinking about trying it out when it is out of CTP.
Ah, I'm glad I had the iMac sitting there to try it out on a non critical PC. I need to play around with the networking.
User avatar
Aabidano
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4861
Joined: July 19, 2002, 2:23 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Florida

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Aabidano »

The word app is beginning to make me want to spew. If your application is over 1-2Mb the word app is identifying you as a trendy prat. App implies a lightweight, generally narrowly scoped product; while it can inter-operate with other stuff it's useful standalone as well.

Nothing MS sells for instance would seem to fall into the "app" category. Word 2010 absolutely does not. Notepad perhaps, if they started charging for it separately.
"Life is what happens while you're making plans for later."
User avatar
Canelek
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 9380
Joined: July 3, 2002, 1:23 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Canelek
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Canelek »

We use 'app' at work just because it is shorter...

As in, "Get your fucking app shit off of my SQL Server! Ever hear of n-tier? Ass."
en kærlighed småkager
User avatar
miir
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 11501
Joined: July 3, 2002, 3:06 pm
XBL Gamertag: miir1
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by miir »

For the past 10-15 years, I've been using the term 'app' to describe any application.
A 4 syllable word just doesn't work for IT people.
I've got 99 problems and I'm not dealing with any of them - Lay-Z
User avatar
Winnow
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 27525
Joined: July 5, 2002, 1:56 pm
Location: A Special Place in Hell

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Winnow »

The word, "App" isn't going away anytime soon.
User avatar
Aabidano
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4861
Joined: July 19, 2002, 2:23 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Florida

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Aabidano »

I suppose. I'd never heard of it used that way, I've been doing this for a while as well.

Went and looked at the fount of knowledge (Wikipedia) after I posted that, seems to be common some places. MS using it is just slavish Apple imitation, they never had previously.

A guy at work called one of our telecom products an app the other day, a couple semi trucks of stuff and a crane are usually used at a new install :D
"Life is what happens while you're making plans for later."
User avatar
Zaelath
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4621
Joined: April 11, 2003, 5:53 am
Location: Canberra

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Zaelath »

miir wrote:For the past 10-15 years, I've been using the term 'app' to describe any application.
A 4 syllable word just doesn't work for IT people.
+1 Apple is to app as Negro is to nigger

Put that in your SATs and smoke it ><
May 2003 - "Mission Accomplished"
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
User avatar
Canelek
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 9380
Joined: July 3, 2002, 1:23 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Canelek
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Canelek »

Application --> App = OK
Appetizer --> App = NOT OK
en kærlighed småkager
User avatar
Animalor
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 5902
Joined: July 8, 2002, 12:03 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Anirask
PSN ID: Anirask
Location: Canada

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Animalor »

I've installed teh Consumer preview on a Lenovo X100e netboox we had at the office. It's pretty damned slick.

The thing with the OS is that it's going to be transformative to the PC ecosystem. In a year's time-18 month's time, I suspect you'll be hard pressed to find a desktop PC that isn't an all-in-one with a touchscreen, a laptop with a touchscreen or a tablet with a keyboard dock.

I've been driving this for a the last day and the worst experience of the new version of the OS is actually the trackpad (well the keyboard nipple that Lenovo uses is actually the worst but that's always been the case). When you use the scrollwheel on the mouse, the displays will actually scroll sideways in metro. It's offputting at first but works quite well.

It'll be years until businesses start implementing this one though. They're going to wait until they've cycle in hardware that makes better use of this and for people to adopt this at home and learn it on their own time.
User avatar
Zaelath
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4621
Joined: April 11, 2003, 5:53 am
Location: Canberra

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Zaelath »

Animalor wrote:I've installed teh Consumer preview on a Lenovo X100e netboox we had at the office. It's pretty damned slick.

The thing with the OS is that it's going to be transformative to the PC ecosystem. In a year's time-18 month's time, I suspect you'll be hard pressed to find a desktop PC that isn't an all-in-one with a touchscreen, a laptop with a touchscreen or a tablet with a keyboard dock.
I bet you're quite quite wrong about that. I bet Windows 8 is going to be the Vista release followed up closely by Windows 9 that doesn't need a touch interface. Hell, I can't even touch my current monitors from where sit. Just because Microsoft wants some windows dressing to explain why you'd pay full release money for Windows 8 doesn't mean people will embrace it.
May 2003 - "Mission Accomplished"
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
User avatar
Animalor
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 5902
Joined: July 8, 2002, 12:03 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Anirask
PSN ID: Anirask
Location: Canada

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Animalor »

Only time will tell. All I can say is that I want to own a tablet running this OS.

I don't feel tempted to reach out and touch my monitor now that I'm used to the keyboard and mouse controls on the desktop now that I'm used to it. It is feeling better and better the more I find out about where stuff is.

The Verge did a good Windows 8/iPad 2 side by side.
http://www.theverge.com/2012/3/1/283534 ... comparison
User avatar
Aslanna
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 12372
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Aslanna »

I don't want to touch my monitor. Dust is bad enough I can't imagine it being streaked with fingerprints. A touch screen is totally unnecessary for a desktop OS. A tablet? Sure. A smartphone? Yeah I can see that. For a PC? No thanks! Metro sucks. Windows 8 sucks.

Oh and the only reason I went to Win7 over XP is the 64bit support was better. If it wasn't for that I'd have no need for Windows 7.
Have You Hugged An Iksar Today?

--
User avatar
Winnow
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 27525
Joined: July 5, 2002, 1:56 pm
Location: A Special Place in Hell

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Winnow »

Windows 8 doesn't require a touch screen but It's designed to work well with a touch screen. Apple is doing the exact same thing with OSX. It's practically "iOSX" with the latest Mountain Lion release.

A few of you still haven't caught on yet that tablets (iPad) are becoming more and more popular with the business world as well as home consumers. You'll figure it out eventually. Do you think the twenty somethings and teens are using less or more of touch screen devices each year? You old farts don't matter as it's those generations that will consume more and more. Some of us past that age actually "get" touch screens working great on certain devices.

You're simply becoming your parents, not understanding that "newfangled crazy fad". Funny how some of you just didn't get the iPad. I really didn't either until I used it for a day. Before it's even released, the iPad 3 is expected to sell 55 MILLION units in 2012, that's not including the number of iPad 2's already sold this year...and with Windows 8 finally providing a worthy alternative (Android Ice Cream, Fudge Nuggets, whatever the fuck, sucks ass, as does the Android App store and is not a worthy competitor to iOS), things will pick up at a even higher rate with Microsoft solidly in the game now.

I spent 4 hours using my iPad 2 today, even with a high end PC and iMac sitting here at my disposal. (battery at 69%)
User avatar
Aslanna
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 12372
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Aslanna »

If I wanted to use an iPad I'd use an iPad it has nothing to do with not "getting it". There's really no part of my day where I would benefit from using an iPad.

The point is I don't need my desktop computer to try emulating something it's not. But if Win7 is supported as long as XP has been it will be 10+ years before I have to worry about it!
Have You Hugged An Iksar Today?

--
User avatar
Winnow
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 27525
Joined: July 5, 2002, 1:56 pm
Location: A Special Place in Hell

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Winnow »

Aslanna wrote: The point is I don't need my desktop computer to try emulating something it's not. But if Win7 is supported as long as XP has been it will be 10+ years before I have to worry about it!

The point is Windows 8 isn't all about the touch screen. They actually made some nice changes to the OS. The point is also that you can totally ignore that front screen that is constantly shown on screenshots. There are changes under the hood to file copying, power management, security, networking, hardware support, etc. Native support for ISOs and VHDs, and USB 3. Adding native touch screen support and unifying their tablet and desktop OS only makes complete sense to do if they want to stay competitive as OSX has already made the switch and Apple knows their shit when it comes to selling stuff to consumers.

There may not be a need to immediately upgrade to Windows 8 but considering installing it on upcoming new PCs or if a new OS is needed would make sense. So far it boots faster than Windows 7 and appears to be lighter than Windows 7.
User avatar
Zaelath
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4621
Joined: April 11, 2003, 5:53 am
Location: Canberra

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Zaelath »

Winnow wrote:
There may not be a need to immediately upgrade to Windows 8 but considering installing it on upcoming new PCs or if a new OS is needed would make sense. So far it boots faster than Windows 7 and appears to be lighter than Windows 7.
Those kinda comparisons amuse me, given the Windows 7 you're comparing it against is unlikely to be a fresh install and their beta releases are quite often missing a bit of the kind of cruft that sneaks in before they make the gold masters.

And nothing in metro makes sense from a keyboard/mouse perspective, at the very least it should be an option and installing to a desktop is a waste of space.
May 2003 - "Mission Accomplished"
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
User avatar
Aslanna
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 12372
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Aslanna »

There is no need to ever upgrade to Win8! I've seen more than just screenshots. There are video tours on the YouTubes and the more I see more I think it's crap for how I use my computer. Others can, and will, love it all they want I have no problem with that. Other than the fact MS will think they are going in the right direction and keep on that path.

If only Win8 would die a horrible death like Microsoft Bob all would be right with the world. Which is funny because other than the dog the Metro interface is almost exactly like Bob!
Have You Hugged An Iksar Today?

--
User avatar
Winnow
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 27525
Joined: July 5, 2002, 1:56 pm
Location: A Special Place in Hell

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Winnow »

Zaelath wrote: Those kinda comparisons amuse me, given the Windows 7 you're comparing it against is unlikely to be a fresh install and their beta releases are quite often missing a bit of the kind of cruft that sneaks in before they make the gold masters.
I was comparing Win 8 boot on a standard 7200 HD iMac/Core 2 Duo to Windows 7 on an SSD/faster CPU. I'm not counting my raid boot up, etc. Windows 8 was designed to use less resources so it can be used on tablets and netbooks.
User avatar
Animalor
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 5902
Joined: July 8, 2002, 12:03 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Anirask
PSN ID: Anirask
Location: Canada

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Animalor »

I used Windows 7 from beta through rc to rtm and never encountered any of this mythical "cruft" people claim Microsoft adds to their products. If anything debugging code is removed and the thing actually usually performs better.

Hell, I just noticed on Friday that my home Win install was done in July 2009 and was still running as well as the day it was installed, and I'm the guy that usually notices the slowdowns and re-formats every year.
(I did run treesize and removed over 100gb of shit downloaded, temp files from various apps and other shit. )

As is the way with Windows, people will get the new one pre-installed on new hardware. I expect upgraders to be purely enthusiasts.

The version of Win8 that will be really interesting to watch will be the ARM versions. That one will not support joining domains/enterprise features and also will not allow classic Windows applications.

I'll be upgrading to it as soon as the RTM hits technet.
User avatar
Aslanna
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 12372
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Aslanna »

The head of Valve says his company is working to develop for Linux, calling Microsoft's Windows 8 a "catastrophe" that will lead product manufacturers to abandon the platform.

"The big problem that is holding back Linux is games. People don't realize how critical games are in driving consumer purchasing behavior," Newell said, according to AllThingsD. "We want to make it as easy as possible for the 2,500 games on Steam to run on Linux as well. It's a hedging strategy. I think Windows 8 is a catastrophe for everyone in the PC space. I think we'll lose some of the top-tier PC/OEMs, who will exit the market. I think margins will be destroyed for a bunch of people. If that's true, then it will be good to have alternatives to hedge against that eventuality."
Fuck Windows 8 for anything except Tablet / Smart phone. I really don't see the point of Win8 on the desktop and I don't think I'm the only one. I surely wont be upgrading!
Have You Hugged An Iksar Today?

--
User avatar
Winnow
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 27525
Joined: July 5, 2002, 1:56 pm
Location: A Special Place in Hell

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Winnow »

Yeah I saw that article. Not a good sign. Hoping it will be decent for phones/tablets because Android hasn't impressed me yet.
Following Madfinger Games' decision to relaunch one its Android games as a free app due to an "unbelievably high" piracy rate, iOS and Mac app developer Matt Gemmell has weighed in on the situation. He has written a lengthy post titled Closed for Business in which he explains why Android app creators are having so much trouble making money.

The article's subheadings pretty much summarize the piece: Designed for piracy, A broken business model, and Freedom from choice. Here are three quotes from each section that I found particularly worthy to highlight:

"The system is designed for piracy from the ground up. The existence of piracy isn't a surprise, but rather an inevitability."
"Piracy isn't a symptom of social disease. Piracy is a symptom of failure to find an effective business model."
"Open is broken as a money-making platform model, unless you're making the OS or the handsets. Most of us aren't doing that."

Gemmel makes excellent points throughout his piece and I strongly recommend reading the whole thing. Many will be quick to point out that he's an iOS app developer, so his conclusion under the last heading "Lock it down" should not be surprising: "Closed is better for business."

The problem is that he's right. There's absolutely no denying that (most) app developers make more money on iOS and that the App Store is much more profitable for Apple than the Google Play store is for Google.

That being said, however, I don't believe that "closed" is the solution. Gemmel clearly outlines why one is better than the other for app developers, and I do think Google needs to bring some of the App Store's features to the Google Play store, but I also believe Apple should do the same in vice versa.

There is a middle-ground between open and closed, between unlocked and locked, between free and paid. I just don't think we've found it yet, and likely won't for quite a while longer. After all, app stores are still relatively new as a concept as well as a business model.
Android App Store will be crap until they get piracy under control. The big developers aren't going to bother. We'll see how Windows 8 Apps go. You need to make piracy at least a slight challenge. You don't even need to root an Android phone or anything to pirate. Just do that "sideload" shit that Zaelath is so proud. Well that, ringtones and animated battery sucking wallpapers!
User avatar
Zaelath
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4621
Joined: April 11, 2003, 5:53 am
Location: Canberra

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Zaelath »

Winnow wrote:Just do that "sideload" shit that Zaelath is so proud.
That would be what you jailbreak iPhones for.

Terms, they're new!

Oh, and Matt Gemmell is a sack of shit. Dead Trigger (the game in question) requires these permissions (among others):
retrieve running apps
Allows the app to retrieve information about currently and recently running tasks. Malicious apps may discover private information about other apps.
There's no reason the game needs that other than to spy on people stupid enough to install this "free" game. They're just trying to gin up some controversy for the free advertising to get a profile for a game that gets most of it's revenue from in app purchases:
Apple Store wrote: Buy small chunk of Gold (200)$0.99
Buy small amount of Money (40000)$0.99
Buy medium amount of Money (150000)$2.99
Buy medium chunk of Gold (650)$2.99
Buy large amount of Money (350000)$4.99
Buy medium chunk of Gold (1200)$4.99
Buy huge amount of Money (800000)$9.99
Buy huge chunk of Gold (4000)$12.99
Buy big chunk of Gold (2600)$9.99
There's nothing special about the Android store that isn't replicated by iOS when you consider how easy iOS is to jailbreak.

The big difference is the revenue model, it's much easier to make money on Android by "giving" stuff away and reaping advertising dollars. There's a lot more bottom end of the market and a lot less trust fund douchbags that buy everything that passes in front of them.

BTW, I do assume you're just trolling because this:
Winnow wrote: Android App Store will be crap until they get piracy under control.
Made me laugh my ass off at the irony.

I think more people should know about that dodgy permission Madfinger Games wants though.
May 2003 - "Mission Accomplished"
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
User avatar
miir
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 11501
Joined: July 3, 2002, 3:06 pm
XBL Gamertag: miir1
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by miir »

I take anything Gabe Newell says about MS with a grain of salt.

If Windows8 is really that bad, gamers will just stick with Windows7.
You're not going to see anything more than a trickle of gamers dumping windows in favour of Linux if they make Steam for Linux.
I've got 99 problems and I'm not dealing with any of them - Lay-Z
User avatar
Siji
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4040
Joined: November 11, 2002, 5:58 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: mAcK 624
PSN ID: mAcK_624
Wii Friend Code: 7304853446448491
Location: Tampa Bay, FL
Contact:

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Siji »

For phones, I'm sure Win8 will be great.

But as far as on a PC? Fark that shit. I went in with an open mind, grabbed Win8 and installed it. I ignored the shitty new interface and tweaked it to be as close to usable as I could. Even after all of that, it still sucked. It wasn't a matter of incompatible apps, it wasn't a matter of a missing start button (though that's fucking retarded too) and it wasn't a matter of getting used to a new UI. The Win8 UI isn't really all that confusing once you put an hour or so into it. What it is, is completely dumbed down. I'm sorry but I don't want my PC to act like a phone. For that matter, i don't want my PC to act like a tablet either. There's absolutely no justification for the changes made in Win8 other than a pie in the sky attempt at merging all platforms together. Nice idea, but PCs are not tablets/phones. When everyone has a tablet that does everything a laptop can do, we'll talk. Win8 is designed as if they're wanting to remove the keyboard and if everyone had a touchscreen, the mouse too. This is NOT going to work for enterprise or power users.

I gave it a day. I actually wanted to like it. I gave up and will never use that pos OS. If the next version of Windows continues with the same interface, I'll be even more inclined to fully switch to Linux or Mac. With at most, a dual-boot using Windows for PC gaming. I'm pretty confident I could explain to granny and gramps how to use Ubuntu easier than Win8.

Win8 is a catastrophe.

PS: Maybe I just haven't looked hard enough, but I have a much much harder time finding 'gently used' Android apps vs IOS apps. I can almost find any IOS app I look for. Android? Not so much. (Or maybe it's just I don't trust sources for android apps like I do IOS apps)
User avatar
Winnow
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 27525
Joined: July 5, 2002, 1:56 pm
Location: A Special Place in Hell

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Winnow »

Siji wrote: PS: Maybe I just haven't looked hard enough, but I have a much much harder time finding 'gently used' Android apps vs IOS apps. I can almost find any IOS app I look for. Android? Not so much. (Or maybe it's just I don't trust sources for android apps like I do IOS apps)
look harder. Android apps are extremely easy to pirate to the platform's detriment. Piracy is so high, software developers can't make any money and shy away from android.

As for Win 8, I'm not going to cheerlead it. I'll try it out the final release in a month or so but am not bothering to grab the release on the torrent sites. It didn't seem that bad (the beta). It's different enough from the past versions to cause panty bunching with some but the backend is supposed to be well programmed and I can figure out the front end easy enough. Not a big deal though. More for tablets and phones.
User avatar
Canelek
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 9380
Joined: July 3, 2002, 1:23 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Canelek
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Canelek »

I can get Win8 via my MSDN subscription, but I am fine with Win7. No need to dumb an OS down any more than 7 is.

I'd be interested in checking out Win8 on a tablet though, even though Android ICS works well on both my tablet and phone.
en kærlighed småkager
User avatar
Zaelath
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4621
Joined: April 11, 2003, 5:53 am
Location: Canberra

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Zaelath »

Winnow wrote:
Siji wrote: PS: Maybe I just haven't looked hard enough, but I have a much much harder time finding 'gently used' Android apps vs IOS apps. I can almost find any IOS app I look for. Android? Not so much. (Or maybe it's just I don't trust sources for android apps like I do IOS apps)
look harder. Android apps are extremely easy to pirate to the platform's detriment. Piracy is so high, software developers can't make any money and shy away from android.
Eat a bag of dicks and stop requoting that one dev who was trying to gin up buzz on his freemium app.

Most app developers on all (both?) platforms struggle to be seen in the sea of trash floating around, or in Applespeak, the rich ecosystem. The people making real money in Android are popular and free/adware and freemium games that exploit that a) parents are stupid, b) kids don't know what they're paying when they click the in app purchase button.

No one is "shying away from android", even the cuntbag you're quoting above is still in the market and will remain there.
May 2003 - "Mission Accomplished"
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
User avatar
Winnow
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 27525
Joined: July 5, 2002, 1:56 pm
Location: A Special Place in Hell

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Winnow »

Android is a mess!

Android's app revenue gap and how developers cope — Tech News ...

Apps don't generate profit for developers. The Great App Bubble in ...

iOS Apps Generate 6 Times the Revenue of Android Apps | Gadget ...

RIM: Blackberry apps more profitable than Android apps - Neowin

Should I go on? Google Android Apps Profits


Good luck!
User avatar
Canelek
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 9380
Joined: July 3, 2002, 1:23 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Canelek
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Canelek »

Titanic made a shitton of money, yet was a shitty movie. Apple is shiny and tells everyone how cool it is. Plus side, my mom can use it without needing help. Otherwise, it is a company that makes people think they are better for buying their products. Pretty much in a similar vein to which my company sells their vaporware. Building a smarter planet, etc. Both companies are good at what they do--convincing people they need to buy products to make them hip and cool and innovative...
en kærlighed småkager
User avatar
Winnow
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 27525
Joined: July 5, 2002, 1:56 pm
Location: A Special Place in Hell

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Winnow »

Canelek wrote:Titanic made a shitton of money, yet was a shitty movie. Apple is shiny and tells everyone how cool it is. Plus side, my mom can use it without needing help. Otherwise, it is a company that makes people think they are better for buying their products. Pretty much in a similar vein to which my company sells their vaporware. Building a smarter planet, etc. Both companies are good at what they do--convincing people they need to buy products to make them hip and cool and innovative...
I'm clear on that. Still doesn't change what's going on with the app situation. I'm sure people love Linux too but they aren't making any money.

Apple's restrictions and nazi'ism actually help them in this case.

Apple is not like the movie Titanic. Their products are excellent and apps are the best or as good at minimum as other the other alternatives (Android/Win 8 )

At least for now, it still comes down to Apples product being better whether they're asses or not about it. Sometimes companies can be arrogant as well as competent. That may change. I still might switch to the Galaxy S3 if I don't like the next iPhone.
User avatar
Canelek
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 9380
Joined: July 3, 2002, 1:23 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Canelek
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Canelek »

Fair enough.

TBH, if they used standard charging cables and got rid of iTunes, I wouldn't bark so much...not that they would ever do that..
en kærlighed småkager
User avatar
Siji
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4040
Joined: November 11, 2002, 5:58 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: mAcK 624
PSN ID: mAcK_624
Wii Friend Code: 7304853446448491
Location: Tampa Bay, FL
Contact:

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Siji »

I'm not an Apple fanboi by any means, but as I tell anyone who asks me how I like my iPhone.. "It just works."
User avatar
Zaelath
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4621
Joined: April 11, 2003, 5:53 am
Location: Canberra

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Zaelath »

Siji wrote:I'm not an Apple fanboi by any means, but as I tell anyone who asks me how I like my iPhone.. "It just works."
Dude, that's like someone saying; I'm not a Fox fanboi, but as I tell anyone who asks me about Bill O'Reily.. "He's fair and balanced."

:)

I'd be interested to read some of Winnow's articles, since I suspect there's a number of causes buried in them by people that only see correlation. (and I suspect completely ignore the trail income from ad sales)

I think it's still far more relevant to deciding which platform to develop for to look at the ratio of winners to losers, and if you look at Android OR Apple, that ratio is so poor you might as well play the lottery.
May 2003 - "Mission Accomplished"
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
User avatar
miir
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 11501
Joined: July 3, 2002, 3:06 pm
XBL Gamertag: miir1
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by miir »

'it just works' is setting expectations pretty fucking low.
I've got 99 problems and I'm not dealing with any of them - Lay-Z
User avatar
Zaelath
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4621
Joined: April 11, 2003, 5:53 am
Location: Canberra

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by Zaelath »

miir wrote:'it just works' is setting expectations pretty fucking low.
My real objection is that it doesn't....

When I call friends w/ iPhones I have to keep asking them to repeat themselves, assuming they don't drop out entirely. I don't have this problem w/ land lines, old candybar phones, quality droid phones, etc.
May 2003 - "Mission Accomplished"
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
User avatar
miir
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 11501
Joined: July 3, 2002, 3:06 pm
XBL Gamertag: miir1
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: Microsoft 7/8 best alternative to IOS

Post by miir »

My wife is constantly bugging me about shit that just doesn't work on her iphone.
And when she needs to make a phonecall or look something up on the internet, she usually grabs my WP (Lumia 900)
I've got 99 problems and I'm not dealing with any of them - Lay-Z
Post Reply