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PostPosted: February 6, 2018, 1:59 pm 
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Winnow wrote:
Aslanna wrote:
Hey, if you're going to take credit for the positive you need to take the blame when things go the opposite way. (Note to Winnow: This is the point of my post. I know you're going to want to go off on some Sarah Palin-esque tirade about something totally unrelated so I'm just trying to help you focus.)


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PostPosted: February 6, 2018, 3:05 pm 
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I was focused. The two biggest down days on the market, you post on this forum. I believe my last post put things into perspective very well when it comes to the overall health of the US Economy. I haven't posted every huge up day the market has had, which far outweigh the down days.

We've had an amazing few years when it comes to the U.S economy. Thanks Trump! I can't imagine what hell we'd be in if Hillary had been in charge.


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PostPosted: February 8, 2018, 10:41 am 
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Washington (CNN)Bolstered by the strong economy and quickly shifting numbers on tax reform, President Donald Trump's approval rating hit 40% in a new Quinnipiac poll on Wednesday, his best score in this survey in seven months.

A slim majority of voters, 51%, say they approve of how Trump is handling the economy, his highest mark on this question since his inauguration. Seven in 10 American voters, 70%, say the US economy is excellent or good -- the best mark on this question since 2001. Three in four, 75%, have positive views of their own personal financial situations.

This marks at least the fifth recent national survey to show Trump's approval rating climbing over the last two months. (The most recent Gallup and CNN polls also show Trump at 40%, while recent polling from Fox News and Monmouth has also shown Trump's scores on the rise.)

And for the first time, voters say Trump, rather than former President Barack Obama, is primarily responsible for the state of the economy, 48% for Trump vs. 41% for Obama. This is a reversal from Obama's 49-40% advantage last month and a stark contrast to Obama's 67-19% spread last March.


Wow CNN posted a semi positive Trump article. Any legacy Obama had continues to fade away.

Trump vs Oprah 2020. 8 years of Trump looking more likely with the joke candidates the Demorcrats are churning up.


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PostPosted: February 8, 2018, 6:45 pm 
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CNN is reporting the results of a recent poll, which happens to be "semi-positive". However, the idea that the economy is strong, is utter nonsense. Many companies are laying off workers and/or closing stores, Flint is still without clean water, much of Puerto Rico remains without power, the infrastructure is crumbling and the workers who aren't getting laid off continue to suffer while the obscenely wealthy prosper.

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PostPosted: February 8, 2018, 10:41 pm 
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Winnow wrote:
I believe my last post put things into perspective very well when it comes to the overall health of the US Economy. I haven't posted every huge up day the market has had, which far outweigh the down days.


Yet in the Obama thread you posted just about every time there was a drop. Hypocrite, much? Besides which the point of my post, which I actually even spelled out, had nothing to do with the health of the economy at all. It was simply pointing out how Trump continues to make himself look like an idiot.

Winnow wrote:
We've had an amazing few years when it comes to the U.S economy. Thanks Trump!


Trump hasn't even been president a "few years" so just goes to show you how much credit he actually deserves for that.

Out of the top 10 days with the largest drops 3 of them have now been on Trump's watch. Thanks Trump, indeed!

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PostPosted: February 9, 2018, 1:04 am 
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Aslanna wrote:

Out of the top 10 days with the largest drops 3 of them have now been on Trump's watch. Thanks Trump, indeed!


Now go back and research the top three PERCENTAGE drops. During Trump's presidency: ZERO

Image

Let me know when it plummets 2,000+ points in a day and then I'll acknowledge a top three! Maybe check into the top three year over year increases in the stock market. Trump make that list? Hmmmm.


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PostPosted: February 9, 2018, 10:53 am 
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"...while the obscenely wealthy prosper."

I'm not obscenely wealthy, and I'm prospering. But I'm about to do my taxes, on the last democrat spun tax year, so I'm more interested in seeing my taxes next year compared to this years return (payment). I hate that they call it a "return". You never get it all back, so its always a loss, a payment, a payoff, whatever. I'm "prospering" so well, that last year I paid over 40% of my earnings in taxes, and this year will be higher. Fuck that. When I was busting my hump working and got paid less, I escaped around the 33% mark. Taxes are unbearably uneven for the "prosperous" (that's anyone that makes a living, tbh). I'm still looking for these loopholes you complainers say us prosperous folks use. News flash, there aint none. Alternative Minimum Tax doesn't allow loop hole management.

Also, I'm sick of this talking point about only the wealthy are prospering. I've prospered over the years, thru hard work and a valued skill. IF you are not prospering, I always suggest self evaluation first. What do you have to offer that's worth being paid for? Are you performing a job that requires that skill? If yes, and you're not satisfied with your personal gains, go gain new skills that pay. Plenty of trade schools or online colleges, etc.

If you think the obscenely wealthy got that way by sitting on their asses, and not performing a skill, you're mistaken. Don't believe the blame train that all of them are just "old money", "trust fund kids", etc. No one gets money for nothing...well, except the obscenely poor. (that's not a slam on welfare/unemployment/etc, just saying its the only free money).

edit: to add to on topic discussion, the DJ will recover here in a week or so. This is just a flash crash correction to all the money spent in a hurry over the last few months. So to use this week as a prognosticator of the future is wrong.


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PostPosted: February 9, 2018, 7:19 pm 
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Kluden wrote:
Also, I'm sick of this talking point about only the wealthy are prospering. I've prospered over the years, thru hard work and a valued skill. IF you are not prospering, I always suggest self evaluation first. What do you have to offer that's worth being paid for? Are you performing a job that requires that skill? If yes, and you're not satisfied with your personal gains, go gain new skills that pay. Plenty of trade schools or online colleges, etc.

You seem to argue that while some jobs are necessary, the people who work them should be poor. No one working 40 hours a week should be living in poverty. If you can't afford to pay your workers a living wage, then you can't afford to own a business. But these billionaire business owners can afford to own a business, they just value capital over labor, forcing far too many people to work hard all their life but in the end still suffer.

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PostPosted: February 10, 2018, 2:08 am 
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I'm sure if no one did the job, the pay would go up. So I assume these jobs are easy, require no real work to get, and people expect them to pay a ton for non essential type work? Let's pick on strawberry pickers. That's not a career, as its not full time year round. And there are plenty of a folks who will take that transient/seasonal type work. It requires no real education, or skill, to perform...so the workforce available is pretty vast. Why would they pay more than minimum?

I don't know man, I won't disagree that some jobs just don't pay enough, but I wouldn't agree just because you work 40 hours doing something, that the "something" should be a career. Lots of folks work 40 hours in fast food...but fast food is not a career. And the owners of fast food places are definitely billionaire business people...so are they evil? Are they valuing capital over the employees? I don't think that type of job counts as a career, personally. Developing a skill or trade that is a commodity, that gets you a career.

What else out there is a 40 hour job, that doesn't pay above poverty level? Let's debate the worthiness of the "career" in question. I doubt we would disagree too much, unless you think a "career" at Mcdonalds is possible? I don't.

Here's an idea for someone who wants to make more money, a lot more. Go to welding trade school. Its a dying art, BUT its still needed all over the country. It pays amazingly well right out of tradeschool....talking $60k plus in a normal city, over $80k in expensive areas. That's a career. But the effort, and working with your hands, and it being somewhat dangerous...well, people aren't willing to make that commitment, to take that risk, they just want a $15 minmum wage to make the Mcdonalds Career a thing. That's crazy. Because in 5 years, it won't be enough, because when companies have to do a higher minimum wage, you will never get raises. Not that they do now though. So its the same debate every couple of years, for adding $5 to the minimum wage. Soon, those businesses go out, because no one is paying $15+ for a fucken happy meal. Now, I wouldn't shed a tear for McDonalds going under, wouldn't freaking care...but what about all the workers. Now they have nothing.

Of note, I do support a higher minimum wage across the country. I have no issues with that. I also support higher wages for teachers...BUT...there has to be a way to make sure they earned it. I don't have that answer so if your example is teacher, you may be right...but they do get 3 months out of the year "off"...that's worth something...actually, its worth 25% of your pay. edit: to add to this teacher career underpayment...well, the other side of me agrees wholeheartedly here, due to the sheer amount of taxes I pay to the schools of my county. Holy Sweet Jebus the taxes I pay for schools...where does that money go??? My sister in law is a teacher, so I know it doesn't go to her.

Also, I really enjoy debating this topic, so don't get mad or angry, I won't either. I may be missing something, would love to hear your side. If you convince me otherwise, great! Never personal for me. I'm not a thickheaded individual when it comes to human existence. I'm a bit jaded by the amount of young people getting out of college, in massive debt, expecting huge paying jobs, when they haven't done a fkn thing yet....or worse...have a degree in something that doesn't pay well. Its not that hard to look up salaries for planned careers...if you picked librarian...well, you made your bed, sleep in it.


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PostPosted: February 10, 2018, 7:21 pm 
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Kluden wrote:
Let's pick on strawberry pickers. That's not a career, as its not full time year round. And there are plenty of a folks who will take that transient/seasonal type work. It requires no real education, or skill, to perform...so the workforce available is pretty vast. Why would they pay more than minimum?

Before we pick on strawberry pickers, let's take a look at a highly-skilled one. There is no such thing as unskilled labor, only undervalued labor. To do a job well requires skill. The skill that that gentleman has is creating wealth and he should be receiving a greater share of it. The bosses at the top are taking the wealth that the workers create. They're valuing capital over labor.

Ideally, workers would own the means of production, but until that happens, at the very least, they should receive a living wage. A full-time worker should be able to survive without government assistance.

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PostPosted: February 11, 2018, 1:00 am 
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Yeah, we definitely disagree then. Strawberry picking is not a career as i mentioned above. Its also "unskilled" labor to me, because its a job that anyone can do. It takes no special training/education/knowledge. Just working hands and feet.

My assumption is he is filmed during a "paid by the pick" contract, not hourly, which is what drove him to be better (more skilled, I guess?) than the rest of the folks....otherwise, why would he try so hard? He wouldn't. You're socialist view on picking strawberries wouldn't work for people like this guy, because then you rob him of his dignity, his reason to be the best fkn picker there is. He would just be another slow ass fuck if you took away motivators. His motivation? Probably to pick his limit each day, get his $50, and goes home after a few hours instead of 8 (or more likely, a 2nd job). Or, he knows through hard work, he will manage fields of strawberries instead of picking them.

He did not decide to be the fastest strawberry picker "just because". That's what capitalism gives you....if you want it. Otherwise, just be the slow fuck out in the fields in your "career" and hope they pay you more because they are forced to. Rely on others to make your life better, don't work for it yourself...the biggest trap in anyones life. You can only rely on one person, yourself.

Now, I won't argue that huge produce firms make money, that's why they are huge. But are they rolling in it that they can just pay people more? Strawberries was a good choice, they are expensive as far as fruit goes (about $5). I doubt the bro in your video earns $1 per carton he fills. So let's assume its 0.25 per carton filled. 2 bucks per box load, 5 minutes per box load. He is making $24/hr picking at that speed. Maybe its $0.125 per carton...so 1 dollar per box load...$12/hr. More than minimum wage.

But then add on that the costs of the growing, the fields, the taxes, the insurance, the shipping, the marketing, the packaging, the labeling, the loading, the driving, the % loss for spoiled shit they don't get paid for...and yeah, I can see why its $5 per carton at the store. If the produce company is making 15% to 20% profit on those cartons, I would say that's fair. I bet its less. and because they sell millions of cartons, they make millions of dollars. That still sounds fair. Otherwise, why take the risk? Do the employees pay the company when the fields get frosted over and they lose crops? Does the government? Of course not, its the risk of doing business. And if you take the risks, you take the rewards...or the losses.

There, a rationale response. I didn't just say, "if its so bad, fkn quit". I don't think that's an answer.

So what type of pay should a migrant, non full time, field worker get paid? Unless I see an agragate of paychecks to these workers, I won't believe wages espoused in online articles written by liberals, where they have one example of a person making nothing. That person is probably a shit worker. Show me this guys paycheck, from your video. I'll bet we find out why he is so damn fast at picking strawberries.

Here's a paycheck example. This dude, assuming it was a yearly job, would be earning 25k a year. Notice, that even when being paid by the pick, they are also reimbursed minimum wage per hour for those hours, guaranteeing them over minimum wage earning potential. That's a far cry from the "pickers only make 10k a year if they are lucky" arguments.
https://datatechag.com/ag/software/the_ ... k_stub.gif

and here's another example...this is from a website that says migrant pickers make 10k a year on average...they are showing a paycheck where if it were for 52 weeks, would be over 30k a year. It also shows a mix of per hour and per pick pay...with minimum wage paid on top of the per pick rate for hours spent per picking.
http://nfwm-yaya.org/wp-content/gallery ... ycheck.jpg
Here's the original scan
http://ciw-online.org/wp-content/upload ... bono12.jpg


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PostPosted: February 11, 2018, 7:33 am 
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Kluden wrote:
Yeah, we definitely disagree then.

Yes, I value workers and you don't.

Quote:
Strawberry picking is not a career as i mentioned above.

A job shouldn't have to be a career in order to be paid a living wage.

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Its also "unskilled" labor to me, because its a job that anyone can do.

Society has deemed certain jobs "unskilled" to justify low wages. What the gentleman in the video is doing requires skill to do well, and it's not something that just anyone can do, otherwise anyone would do it. You can substitute strawberry picker with any other so-called "unskilled" job: fast food worker, retail worker, restaurant worker, hospitality worker, etc. These are all jobs that require skill to do well.

Quote:
That's what capitalism gives you...

Capitalism gives us pollution, hunger and poverty, among other things. There are enough empty homes in the United States to house every homeless person, and enough food to feed every hungry person. There's also enough wealth in this country to lift everyone out of poverty, but capitalism prevents any of the above from happening.

Quote:
Now, I won't argue that huge produce firms make money, that's why they are huge. But are they rolling in it that they can just pay people more?

As I stated earlier, if you can't afford to pay your workers a living wage, then you can't afford to own a business.

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So what type of pay should a migrant, non full time, field worker get paid?

A living wage, but the wage is only part of it. There should also be plenty of paid time off, paid sick days, paid maternity/paternity leave, etc. You should be given a proper lunch break and time to relieve yourself so you're not pissing and shitting in the field. And you should be able to live and work in your community without fear of being deported. Oh, and farm workers shouldn't be sexually assaulted. And they shouldn't be children, either.

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PostPosted: February 11, 2018, 12:25 pm 
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too communist leaning for me. sorry man, we won't be convincing each other of anything, clearly.

But, to say a job shouldn't have to be a career, you're right! Just like a job shouldn't have to pay like it IS a career.

What is a living wage? That's really what I'm asking. How much is needed to live? It has to be an hourly rate, because these undervalued jobs you mentioned, I don't think any are really 40 hours steady all year. How can a part time employer, with no real relation to their employees, give them all those extra benefits too? They are only "taking advantage" of them, by employing them part time when needed...creating jobs...without them, no jobs, even worse.

How can a society maintain the burden of paying part time work like this? If strawberries are now $10 a box...will half as many people buy them to maintain the businesses? I would argue no. So again, now less/no jobs. its worse.

I'm not debating pollution, plenty of communist countries pollute(d) at levels like everyone else. Every type of society has hunger and poverty as well. My family escaped communist soviet controlled Ukraine, due to hunger and poverty, home of mass genocide the world has never seen in such numbers, to come to the US to try and achieve something. Spoiler: they did...because of capitalism. So you may say I have a unique insight into socialism, and how its a lie, a trap.

This utopia you're espousing, the Star Trek system, is a dream, fiction. Socialism doesn't work...it deprives humans of their inherent worth in self improvement, development, etc. I would use the droves of people willing to risk their lives on a raft from cuba as an example of why socialism is so bad to people.

In socialism, what if you always dreamed of going to the moon? Nope, not needed, not a job provided because it doesn't benefit the society. What if you want to invent something that would make your job easier? Not worth it, you will gain nothing, your idea will be stolen from you and given right back to you and all the other workers in your job, no benefit for you for being so smart and creative. No incentive. You're life is not yours in socialism. While the ruling people, government, live in their life of exuberance and lavish lifestyles....laughing at their slave nation....because they will still sell your labors to the rest of the world, in capitalistic money making ways.

So what system is better? What do we change to make sure incentives are still rewarded? Capitalism works. If you want to end a company for being whatever, you don't buy their product(s). Boycotting is legal. In the Ukraine, it wasn't. In socialism, it isn't.

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There's also enough wealth in this country to lift everyone out of poverty, but capitalism prevents any of the above from happening.

I'm not sure if you're serious here. I already give 40+% of my earnings to others. That's a lot of readjustment penalty for being successful. You want more? Why would I do my necessary job then? Because "its the right thing to do"? I'll pass.

edit: I gave you examples of migrant worker paychecks where they are making, clearly, more than we are told. 25k a year seems to be a living wage when being told its 10k. and if its seasonal work, which it is, and they only work 3 months a year, and make 10k as suggested by people, that leaves 9 months to work another job...so they are not making only 10k a year. Its a fucken lie...until I see paychecks that prove otherwise. Hell, I would ask for full year w2's from all their jobs and hours worked for the year to determine if they are underpaid, as my simple google search is showing otherwise.


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PostPosted: February 11, 2018, 3:22 pm 
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The farther China has moved away from communism, the more successful they've become, including less poverty.

From May 2013:

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Chinese communism is like the ubiquitous frog placed in slowly boiling water; the little creature doesn't notice the water's getting hot until it's too late. China communism is changing. The word "reform" is being spoken louder than ever. And while it may just be lip service in the end, one thing is absolutely certain: China is moving farther away from Mao communism and into something of a limbo zone: neither democratic, nor free, but with no clear leader saying 'follow me to the promised land'. China tends to move at a tortoise pace, but it's pace is crawling in the right direction. Call it Communism 2.0, I suppose. Because, really, was there ever anything other than a Communism 1.o? Maybe a 1.5.

China's government continues to dip a collective toe in the muddy, and bloody, waters of global capitalism. Beijing is stepping off the gas pedal. It's letting the market decide more of China's economic fate.


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Years ago, in Latin America of the late 1980s and 1990s, the word "reform" meant doing whatever Washington, the World Bank, and the International Monetary Fund told you to do. But in China, there is no concern over the IMF. China doesn't owe these guys a dime. There is no concern in Beijing over what Washington thinks about them. At the heart of it, reform means making economies more market friendly -- it's about innovation and entrepreneurs, yes. But it is mostly about making large investors happy. It is about keeping them in the country, and making life easier for them. China's reforms are about that. Yet, they are also about building a social safety net. They are also about protecting an aging population.


Communism doesn't work. "innovation and entrepreneurs" works.

Poverty in the United states has been dramatically reduced in the 50 years since "The War on Poverty" kicked off.

The definition of poverty means something a lot different these days.

Here's a 2012 article to start you off:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... ve-charts/

For those that want to do very little or pick strawberries, their lives will be significantly enhanced by the internet and virtual reality. Within a decade, even poor people will only need a concrete small room with a toilet and some Soylent and will be able to travel anywhere they want virtually. There are already numerous ways to access college level courses and textbooks online. Anyone that wants too will be able to see the world and beyond and learn about whatever they want right from their small featureless cube (which of course can be made to look like a palace via VR/AR), as long as their toilet doesn't back up from the super logs dropped by drinking Soylent, there wont be much maintenance expences. If they want more, they can access that training online and improve themselves, or sit back and just chill in any environment they want virtually. If they want to pursue a job that they can't smell like shit in, the government can subsidize installing a shower into their cube.

When "Gatacca" type DNA babies become a reality, we'll be able to mostly eliminate the retards and filter out a lot of the medical conditions that place burdens on the medical system. Anyone having babies naturally after that point should be left to fend for themselves. No "best DNA from both parents" baby? No federal aid.

If you're not familiar with Gattaca, here's the 1.5 minute scene during their visit with the geneticist

"The child is still you, simply the best of you. You could conceive a thousand times and never get such a result"


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PostPosted: February 11, 2018, 7:53 pm 
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Kluden wrote:
Also, I'm sick of this talking point about only the wealthy are prospering. I've prospered over the years, thru hard work and a valued skill. IF you are not prospering, I always suggest self evaluation first. What do you have to offer that's worth being paid for? Are you performing a job that requires that skill? If yes, and you're not satisfied with your personal gains, go gain new skills that pay. Plenty of trade schools or online colleges, etc.

If you think the obscenely wealthy got that way by sitting on their asses, and not performing a skill, you're mistaken. Don't believe the blame train that all of them are just "old money", "trust fund kids", etc. No one gets money for nothing...well, except the obscenely poor. (that's not a slam on welfare/unemployment/etc, just saying its the only free money).


Easy for some to say. Some people are working 2 40 hour jobs just to pay the rent and put food on the table. So your argument is basically people aren't working hard enough when for a lot of people that's not the case.

Kluden wrote:
edit: to add to on topic discussion, the DJ will recover here in a week or so. This is just a flash crash correction to all the money spent in a hurry over the last few months. So to use this week as a prognosticator of the future is wrong.



Probably. And if you look at my original post, where I even pointed out the point I was making, you'll see I wasn't commenting on whether it would recover or not. But no surprise Winnow totally ignored that.

Winnow wrote:
Now go back and research the top three PERCENTAGE drops. During Trump's presidency: ZERO

Let me know when it plummets 2,000+ points in a day and then I'll acknowledge a top three! Maybe check into the top three year over year increases in the stock market. Trump make that list? Hmmmm.


Sure. If you go by a single day. How about adding that week up? Surely was worse than anything that happened on Obama's watch. Yet you're fine with it. Isn't that fucking convenient.

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PostPosted: February 11, 2018, 9:41 pm 
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Kluden wrote:
So what system is better?

There's a documentary from 1983, Seeing Red, about American communists of the 1930s-50s that debunks all of the anti-communist propaganda. It's the most accurate depiction of the kind of communism I advocate. In a nutshell, it's workers controlling the means of production, workers getting paid what they're worth. Workers create the wealth, they should keep it.

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Capitalism works.

No, it doesn't. Some will point to the iPhone as proof that capitalism works, but workers jump off of the building where iPhones are assembled, and much of the technology used in the iPhone is government technology.

In the United States, a country founded on slavery--the foundation of capitalism--and genocide, 43 percent of children live in low-income families, while 21 percent of children live in poverty. That's capitalism. The majority of food stamp recipients are children and senior citizens. That's capitalism. There are people dying because they fail to meet the goals of their GoFundme campaigns. That's capitalism. There are people living in cages because they can't afford bail. That's capitalism. In the United States, food waste is estimated at 30-40 percent of the food supply. That's capitalism. I could go on and on.

You seem to be arguing against dictatorships. I'm not in favor of dictatorships, either. I'm not in favor of the government controlling everything, but the people--worker-owned businesses, etc.

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I already give 40+% of my earnings to others.

You give a percentage of your earnings to the government, just as every worker does. A lot of that money is used to fund wars and the military-industrial complex. That's capitalism, too. I have what you would consider a skilled job, but if I were to pay 40-plus percent of my earnings in taxes, I'd be living in poverty. However, if I was getting paid what I'm worth, I'd be prospering.

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PostPosted: February 13, 2018, 11:53 am 
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I don't think you've said anything that's false, so I'll give you that. I mean, except your hyperbole about the US being founded on slavery, when half the country was so against it they killed each other over it to stop it. So realistically, this country was founded on free economy, paying workers via capitalism, and dying to ensure it. That's a far cry from saying the US is founded on slavery when only half the country was of that opinion (and not half by population).

Thank you for being clear on your goals vs. how I was seeing them. Communism to me is not the same to you, as I mentioned I have more personal/familial experiences that shape my opinions. The version of communism in the film still requires leaders. It won't work. Documentary or not (its not really watchable, to be honest...too dated for me...and romanticized. Watched part 1 and 2). I'll give you a counter point. Jonestown. Jim Jones created his own socialistic society...how'd that work out? For those that don't know, it worked out in murder (and a koolaid colloquialism)...but before that was poverty.

"fair and balanced" leader socialism relies on people being perfect individuals, that are born with an idea of what they want to do, in enough of a variety, to benefit the whole of this society. That's a pipe dream, that's what I'm saying. Socialism is a lie that won't work on a grand scale....or a small scale. If you start a socialist commune in Wyoming tomorrow...you will still be completely reliant on the products of your capitalistic neighbors. At what point is your commune going to become self sufficient? At our worlds' current technological age, I would say never.

Or perhaps you would more prefer everyone live like Ted Kaczynski? He lived in a hut, no power, no water, self sufficiently for years. He got by in this capitalistic country on a budget of around $200...FOR THE YEAR. So see my point? You can do your thing now. Get off the grid, get off technology, go build a shack in the woods and be self sufficient and ignore capitalism to the tune of $500 a year (adjusted for inflation) by performing odd jobs (carpentry and the like, that's what Ted did). Just maybe don't do the whole unabomb part.

Obviously my gripes on taxes are personal. The "haves" get robbed exponentially more than the rest of society. I'm reminded of this every time I hear about "have's and have nots" and how the haves don't pay their share. ...so please direct your complaints to the government for funding issues, not the "haves".

Its not fair for you to argue what taxes are spent on. That's outside of capitalism, etc, that's the republic's fault. And that's a different discussion.

The iphone, while tragic what workers do themselves, also hilarious since its a communist country where it happens, is a great example of capitalism. Supply and demand at its finest. I don't own an iphone. And obviously those factory workers could have their pay more than quadrupled and the iphone would still cost the same, apple would just make less. But, thanks to capitalism, they can still charge $1k per phone, because the demand is there. Also, since it was 'invented' in a capitalistic society, the idea wasn't just stolen and produced by the commune, with no benefits going back to said inventor.

Dying vs Gofundme campaigns? Really? I just don't know what to say here....relying on others, etc, as mentioned above, is what I'll go with. People go to jail and its capitalisms fault they broke the law? Come on. 43% and 21% numbers you gave...I'll give you an answer that I've seen as the reason. People just keep having kids...why? If you're broke, just stop having kids...but wait, the government will give you more free shit for every kid you have? The delivery of kids won't cost you a thing? Well, that's easier than picking up free condoms at the clinic, and more lucrative! Well, OF COURSE there are so many kids living in poverty...the government pays a woman in poverty to produce more of them! This has nothing to do with race, btw, as this is a problem for any poverty stricken race...the trap that is welfare.

I think we've reached the end on this subject. We're saying the same things, basically, now. So instead of talking about socialism and capitalism, I suggest we talk more about living wage. As I'm interested in that topic. I don't know enough about it. What it is, how much it is, what else is it, etc.


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PostPosted: February 13, 2018, 12:20 pm 
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I won't bother really joining in on the conversation because most of what's being said angers me and there's really no point.

Suffice to say that aside from the communism bit, I agree with almost everything spang has said, as much as that fucking pains me to say.

As far as I'm concerned, the biggest change I'd like to see is to have corporations in this country absolutely saddled with regulation. The one thing Capitalism has been good for is figuring out that it doesn't work; people are self centered shitbags, and if you let them have free reign, they ARE NOT GOING TO DO THE RIGHT THING. To say that we haven't proven this is the case is just willful ignorance. I'd say too, that when you decide to fuck the corporations into the ground, make sure to make an immediate law change that goes along with the initial announcement that states that any corporation that leaves the country due to these changes will now see their goods taxed at 95% of their worth to be imported. I'd like to see profits capped, Citizens United reversed, heavy environmental regulations put in place, every single tax and other financial loophole closed, etc etc etc.

It's almost like people believe real life is a fucking Ayn Rand story - what, are the "great thinkers" going to pick themselves up by the seat of their pants like the Lorax and fly away to their own little personal island? Get fucking real.

It's to the point that I wish my family didn't live in this country as I'm so close with them that the idea of being on a different continent just isn't something that really appeals to me. I don't like much of anything about the direction things are going in: social media is turning people into a creepy hive mind, the environment is being absolutely ruined, corporations are getting way too powerful (Amazon, Google, Facebook all need to be brought to their knees as far as I'm concerned), and on and on. I think the likelihood that I end up moving to a tiny home in the mountains somewhere, with satellite for internet and some solar panels, is a definite possibility. You guys can have society.

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PostPosted: February 13, 2018, 1:55 pm 
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Funkmasterr wrote:
It's to the point that I wish my family didn't live in this country as I'm so close with them that the idea of being on a different continent just isn't something that really appeals to me. I don't like much of anything about the direction things are going in: social media is turning people into a creepy hive mind, the environment is being absolutely ruined, corporations are getting way too powerful (Amazon, Google, Facebook all need to be brought to their knees as far as I'm concerned), and on and on. I think the likelihood that I end up moving to a tiny home in the mountains somewhere, with satellite for internet and some solar panels, is a definite possibility. You guys can have society.


With crypto currencies being taxed in the U.S., it's not a bad idea to bolt (if you invest in them). If you want to not be tied to a specific country, crypto and moving to a country that's crypto friendly would be the way to go. Avoiding taxes isn't the solution though. Those roads and other infrastructures we take for granted don't get built for free.

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I think the likelihood that I end up moving to a tiny home in the mountains somewhere, with satellite for internet and some solar panels, is a definite possibility.


Not sure about satellite for internet if you are a gamer, the ping is too high, but otherwise, I don't have much need for society save for a handful of people. Even from 10-20 years ago, people just don't move around as much as they used to. Most entertainment is home based now even for kids.


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PostPosted: February 13, 2018, 3:36 pm 
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Kluden wrote:
Dying vs Gofundme campaigns? Really? I just don't know what to say here....relying on others, etc, as mentioned above, is what I'll go with.

The gentleman in question, Shane Patrick Boyle, couldn't afford the high cost of insulin that he needed to live. He came up $50 short and died, after days of rationing the insulin he did have. But maybe he had an "unskilled" job and deserved to die. If only he had gone to welding school, or whatever. Or, maybe the cost of health care in the United States is too fucking much. It is, by the way. And why is that? I'll give you a hint: it's capitalism.

I'm not in favor of cults or people living in squalor.

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People go to jail and its capitalisms fault they broke the law?

Yes.

Prison Policy Initiative wrote:
In addition to the 1.6 million people incarcerated in federal and state prisons, there are 646,000 people locked up in more than 3,000 local jails throughout the U.S. Seventy percent of these people in local jails are being held pretrial — meaning they have not yet been convicted of a crime and are legally presumed innocent. One reason that the unconvicted population in the U.S. is so large is because our country largely has a system of money bail, in which the constitutional principle of innocent until proven guilty only really applies to the well off.


Kluden wrote:
I suggest we talk more about living wage.

A living wage is what the minimum wage should be. It would still be the bare minimum, but the worker would be able to survive without government assistance, a second, third or fourth job, or committing crime. Wealth comes from the blood, sweat and tears of workers, not the assholes of rich people.

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PostPosted: February 13, 2018, 4:19 pm 
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Kluden wrote:
I suggest we talk more about living wage.

Spang wrote:
A living wage is what the minimum wage should be. It would still be the bare minimum, but the worker would be able to survive without government assistance, a second, third or fourth job, or committing crime. Wealth comes from the blood, sweat and tears of workers, not the assholes of rich people.


Yeah, like I said - this Randian idea that we would all just be living in squalor without the great thinkers making awesome ideas and corporations for us is laughable. Corporations are built by all of the contributions of their employees, upper management generally the least among those contributions.

The fact that any adult with an IQ higher than that of a fucking tree frog has to have it explained to them that there are other social, racial, etc factors that contribute to it not being so simple as "try harder, capitalism yay!" is fucking depressing, and one of the many reasons that I don't have much more than disdain for the average citizen of this country.

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PostPosted: February 13, 2018, 6:37 pm 
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Sorry this all pissed you off. I was simply trying to learn a different point of view. By asking a question, I'm trying to learn what your opinion is, simply put. I respect other's opinions...either changes my mind, or reinforces it.

I've never read Rand...so not sure if you're referencing spam's or my thoughts there.

You want to regulate more, fine. I don't see a problem. The feds capped profits on health insurance companies, so that system got way better, right? But yeah, you're right, people aren't going to do the right thing just to do it...hence why other types of systems, especially socialism, won't work either....you're expecting people to do the right thing. Its also pretty apparent that corporations exist because its more efficient, etc. Without managers...i mean, what the hell is running the show? the workers? so they will do the right thing! gotcha!

Now, onto the dude that died from gofundme (edit, I looked up his name, he had no job, no insurance, and moved away from his supplier of insulin to take care of his mom, who died 2 days before he did). Due to federal law, he would have lived if he called 911 or visited the ER. BUT...to your real point, that capitalism failed him into death, you're right. Pharmaceuticals is by far a very nefarious business. You want to get a bill passed that forces pharms to not be about profit, I'd probably go for it...but innovation and R&D has to be paid for somehow. I'm not defending their sheer massive profits with that statement.

Now, with that said, saying all capitalism is bad because of particular industries, like pharmaceuticals....well, that's a misleading vividness argument. Its using one moment to denigrate all the good from the same industry. Those companies have invented and provided products, thanks to capitalism, that have saved lives. Yes yes, I know, their greed ruins any karmic gains...and I'm not arguing they are good people in charge. They aren't.

We will never agree on capitalism making you goto jail. Only one person put you in jail when you broke the law. You want to change the laws so the government reimburses you for time spent in jail awaiting trial, and your bail money if you paid it, (in which you were found not guilty), fine, I can get on board with that. That actually seems fair. If you were wrongfully accused, arrested without cause, etc, you deserve to be paid for your time. $100 a day, untaxed, seems fair. But no civil cases then after the fact, except for gross negligence. They can pay for this from the foreign aid budget.

Also, nothing in that article states that people were arrested simply due to capitalism. If you're referring to imprisonment from not paying your fines (ie, breaking the law), again, don't break the law. But I would also point out, that the fine prisoning idea is not a capitalism idea, its from the government. Not from some CEO who runs a company. Its from the mayor you put into office, and the councilmen and women you put into office.

Funk, we ain't doing this to make anyone mad. Its just fun to discuss in my opinion. My end goal IS to live on a mountain with no more than I need for me and my family, using solar and wind, and some sort of internet...the tech isn't where I want it yet to make it happen...and, family ties.


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PostPosted: February 13, 2018, 7:34 pm 
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No need to be sorry, you think what you think. The discussion used to be fun for me too, but I'm too jaded on people, the government, etc to really be interested anymore. It's feels nice to talk about shit, but the reality is that I don't see any real way to swing things back from the direction they're going in - the wealthy (not just in the US) have too much power, and will not work against themselves to change that, ever.

I'm fine with watching it all burn at this point, it's what humanity deserves. I don't intend to bring children into this dumpster fire, and I don't think my siblings will either, so my view at this point is more or less that at least I'll be dead and gone before it completely goes to shit. Hopefully.

I'm not always all doom and gloom. Promise.

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PostPosted: February 14, 2018, 1:03 am 
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Fundamentally, on the government side, we do not disagree. Lots of changes need done. I also get swept up due to being in the top tax bracket, but I'm not a 1%er, never will be due to how much I value my own time. Perhaps if there were more tax brackets, I would probably feel less burnt. But having lots of brackets is cumbersome, that's for sure, for the processing side of things. I would prefer the flat tax route...but that wouldn't fix the rich vs. poor stuff we are talking about here. I'm not even sure how that would make the government more money, but supposedly it would.

I should probably just google tax loop holes for my bracket and see how the 1%ers do it.


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PostPosted: February 15, 2018, 1:28 pm 
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Kluden wrote:

I should probably just google tax loop holes for my bracket and see how the 1%ers do it.


I'm currently trading my crypto somewhere in Asia (I think Hong Kong at the moment but there are also servers located elsewhere). If I hit a moonshot and make a large sum equivalent to a bunch of FIAT, I'd have two choices. 1, transfer it back to coinbase and pay the max taxes in US dollars. 2, apply for citizenship somewhere else and not pay the taxes. Would losing your US citizenship be worth 35-40%?

I'm making around 10-15 trades a day. If I was doing that on Coinbase/GDAX (US based crypto exchange) I'd have to account for every one of those trades on my taxes. For now,the plan is to eventually transfer my crypto back to Coinbase and then pay the taxes on the difference between my original amount I held there.

Even during the recent Crypto crash, I managed to increase my holdings by 33% over the past 2 weeks through day (it's really 24/7 with crypto) trading it. Compared to trading stocks, I'm having a blast with Crypto.


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PostPosted: February 15, 2018, 2:10 pm 
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That's pretty interesting. I'm traveling to Austria in a few months, and may have a day or 2 trip to switzerland. Will opening a swiss bank account to deposit my sold crypto currency help me evade US taxes? (at least until I bring that currency to a US based bank that is). There's no way I found to bring money into the US tax free, for an individual at least.


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PostPosted: February 15, 2018, 3:33 pm 
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Kluden wrote:
That's pretty interesting. I'm traveling to Austria in a few months, and may have a day or 2 trip to switzerland. Will opening a swiss bank account to deposit my sold crypto currency help me evade US taxes? (at least until I bring that currency to a US based bank that is). There's no way I found to bring money into the US tax free, for an individual at least.


I suppose it would. The biggest issue is getting your US Dollars converted to crypto currencies. Coinbase is one of the few US based options for that. Once your funds are processed and you have your Bitcoin/Ethereum/Litecoin, you can then move that the Coinbase' exchange (GDAX) for free and then transfer those crypto currencies to a foreign exchange (Like Binance). Once it's there, it's out of sight of US Fed prying eyes and you can do what you want with it.

Also, once your Bitcoin/Ether/Litecoin is on the exchange, you'll have access to 100's of crypto currencies, not just the big three/four listed on Coinbase.

Binance is the exchange I use:

https://www.binance.com/

Eventually (and this is progressing pretty quickly), you will be able to use crypto currencies to pay for things a lot easier and may not have to move your money back into US Dollars for items/services that you can purchase outside the United States. I already have limited experience with this using Bitcoin over the past few years to pay for online subscriptions etc. Litecoin will be used more often than bitcoin for purchases in the future.


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PostPosted: February 15, 2018, 6:21 pm 
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My thought on the swiss bank account was actually to protect assets from depreciating dollar. Obviously, that's not a thing at this exact moment, but inflation exists none the less. Tax evasion wasn't the motive, as its not possible, truly, anyways. Swiss bank accounts are not hidden necessarily, any longer, from the IRS. But the reality is, I don't have to pay swiss taxes, as an american, but will pay US taxes when and if I bring that money into the US. Otherwise, it sits there, and I can use it on world markets legally, without losing to taxes while not using those funds in the US. I think its a good shelter for money not needed in the US right now, and will definitely open an account while there.

I'll have to see how that applies to utilizing said account to just join a coin trader that isn't US based, so I can skip that step you mentioned.

edit: upon investigation, Obama ensured that this won't work by requiring a few foreign bank account forms be filled out, or possible fine/jail time if not. Interestingly enough, Canadian banks are the only that refuse to comply with the US's world banking affidavit. So its probably out as a coin based profit abode...but still a safe haven for currency issues.


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PostPosted: February 18, 2018, 6:07 am 
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Hi everyone. What's happening?!

Oh yea. Donald Trump is the president...

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PostPosted: March 1, 2018, 11:16 pm 
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Another down day due to Trump's stupid decisions. 1,094 points over the past three days. Not a peep from Winnow!

Even beyond just the impact on the market the tariff decision is terrible. Get ready to pay more for just about everything.

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PostPosted: March 2, 2018, 10:34 am 
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Aslanna wrote:
Another down day due to Trump's stupid decisions. 1,094 points over the past three days. Not a peep from Winnow!


I'm currently trading Crypto currencies. Keep up! I'm up around 20% the past month. It's nothing spectacular but better than the stock market. Please post after the market bottoms out so I can jump back in.

Reality check on the stock market though. It's currently 24,608. It 'was just under 18,000 right before Trump was elected. Corrections always happen in the market during its steady upward trend the past 100+ years. Looks like I picked a good time last month to switch out of the market for awhile.

BTW, I'm not advocating others trade crypto. There's some crazy shit going on right now so you need to be actively (hourly) keeping on top of things, but if you are able to do that, there are some bones to be made.


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PostPosted: March 5, 2018, 5:02 pm 
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Winnow wrote:
Aslanna wrote:
Another down day due to Trump's stupid decisions. 1,094 points over the past three days. Not a peep from Winnow!


I'm currently trading Crypto currencies. Keep up! I'm up around 20% the past month. It's nothing spectacular but better than the stock market. Please post after the market bottoms out so I can jump back in.

Reality check on the stock market though. It's currently 24,608. It 'was just under 18,000 right before Trump was elected. Corrections always happen in the market during its steady upward trend the past 100+ years. Looks like I picked a good time last month to switch out of the market for awhile.

BTW, I'm not advocating others trade crypto. There's some crazy shit going on right now so you need to be actively (hourly) keeping on top of things, but if you are able to do that, there are some bones to be made.


My brother got Bitcoin at 1500. Etherium at 4.00 and Ripple at .04.

He just gave me a list of 8 more he says are going to increase 5x.

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PostPosted: March 5, 2018, 5:49 pm 
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Tyek wrote:

My brother got Bitcoin at 1500. Etherium at 4.00 and Ripple at .04.

He just gave me a list of 8 more he says are going to increase 5x.


Spill the beans! Make sure you do your own research, 5X seems reasonable though. 100X like Ethereum/Bitcoin will be a long shot.

Edit: hopefully your brother bought a substantial amount at $1,500. I bought Bitcoin at $200, $400 and $600.00 but not as an investment. (ref: check out mega thread in computer section on bitcoin)


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PostPosted: March 9, 2018, 1:38 pm 
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Winnow wrote:
Tyek wrote:

My brother got Bitcoin at 1500. Etherium at 4.00 and Ripple at .04.

He just gave me a list of 8 more he says are going to increase 5x.


Spill the beans! Make sure you do your own research, 5X seems reasonable though. 100X like Ethereum/Bitcoin will be a long shot.

Edit: hopefully your brother bought a substantial amount at $1,500. I bought Bitcoin at $200, $400 and $600.00 but not as an investment. (ref: check out mega thread in computer section on bitcoin)


He consults for a company that needs to watch that market closely.He Did very well. He says Tzero, EOS. Civic and several others will all see 5 x the investment. He gave me a list of 10 or so. After I make another stupid tax payment I will start doing some investments.

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PostPosted: March 9, 2018, 3:42 pm 
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Tyek wrote:
Winnow wrote:
Tyek wrote:
He consults for a company that needs to watch that market closely.He Did very well. He says Tzero, EOS. Civic and several others will all see 5 x the investment. He gave me a list of 10 or so. After I make another stupid tax payment I will start doing some investments.



Curious if OMG (OmiseGO) is one of them. VEN (VeChain) is another one I'm in and out of. VEN gets pumped a lot but it's Chinese and has some government support over there making it a little unique in that area.

Right now, I'm really not sticking with anything. I'm still trading back and forth between ETH and other currencies, increasing the (volume) of my holdings. It's been working well to keep the dollar value of my investment the same even though crypto in general has been in an extended bear market.


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PostPosted: March 17, 2018, 4:02 pm 
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Winnow wrote:
Tyek wrote:
Winnow wrote:
Tyek wrote:
He consults for a company that needs to watch that market closely.He Did very well. He says Tzero, EOS. Civic and several others will all see 5 x the investment. He gave me a list of 10 or so. After I make another stupid tax payment I will start doing some investments.



Curious if OMG (OmiseGO) is one of them. VEN (VeChain) is another one I'm in and out of. VEN gets pumped a lot but it's Chinese and has some government support over there making it a little unique in that area.

Right now, I'm really not sticking with anything. I'm still trading back and forth between ETH and other currencies, increasing the (volume) of my holdings. It's been working well to keep the dollar value of my investment the same even though crypto in general has been in an extended bear market.



He recommended the Jaxx App, he did not mention OMG. but he had in the past. No on VEN either. He did mention I/O. I just got my tax bill back so we will not be investing right now. Apparently I have to pay additional taxes so Spang can be "Community Organizer" and complain about how I make too much and I am evil....................also not plant-based.
Guess we will wait a bit longer to buy in.

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PostPosted: March 18, 2018, 4:36 pm 
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Tyek wrote:
I just got my tax bill back so we will not be investing right now.


Now is a good time I suppose. Crypto has crashed/plummeted in price the past few weeks. As I look at the ticker, ETH is 475/coin (-15% from previous 24 hour period). It was $1,400 just a few months back. BTC is $7,384 down from a $20K high.

Daytrading has kept me from losing a bunch, but I am down a little on my original investment right now.


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PostPosted: March 22, 2018, 9:23 pm 
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Down another 724 points. All these 3% drops starting to add up. Bring on the trade wars!

Strangely enough I don't see Trump tweeting about how well people's 401ks are doing lately. Funny how that works.

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PostPosted: March 23, 2018, 10:20 am 
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Aslanna wrote:
Bring on the trade wars!


Do you have your own solution to the trade issues with China or do you just like to complain when someone tries to do something about it?


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PostPosted: March 23, 2018, 12:12 pm 
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Winnow wrote:
Aslanna wrote:
Bring on the trade wars!


Do you have your own solution to the trade issues with China


Don't get into a war you can't win is my solution.

Or like.. he could listen to actual economists and shit but hey... Who has time for that when you're on Twitter all day.

Winnow wrote:
do you just like to complain when someone tries to do something about it?


Funny comping from the person who complained about nearly every single thing Obama did.

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PostPosted: March 23, 2018, 12:42 pm 
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Aslanna wrote:

Funny comping from the person who complained about nearly every single thing Obama did.


Obama sucked because he did nothing. Now, Trump sucks because he does something. The do nothing route works for awhile until...you have to do something.


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PostPosted: March 23, 2018, 3:35 pm 
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Did you get that from FOX News?

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PostPosted: March 26, 2018, 4:21 pm 
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Trump stock market bashers can take the day off.


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PostPosted: March 28, 2018, 7:08 pm 
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Winnow wrote:
Trump stock market bashers can take the day off.


What a fuckin liar!

And again, it wasn't simply about how the market is doing under Trump. But apparently you can't wrap your brain around that. No surprise there.

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PostPosted: April 2, 2018, 9:51 pm 
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Quote:
Trump’s new tariffs, meanwhile, prompted China on Sunday to retaliate against a range of American agriculture products. This will not only hurt U.S. farmers, but it was a completely foreseeable consequence of the president’s decision. White House officials have repeatedly insisted that the president was not starting a trade war. They were wrong.


What a disaster of a president. America first! I'm sure those farmers will thank Trump for "doing something", right?

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PostPosted: April 3, 2018, 10:21 am 
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Farmers are a drying breed. The US government has been subsidizing them for years by buying excess grain.

These sanctions hurt farmers like it hurt Walmart when someone with a smarter way of doing things came along like Amazon, like Walmart hurt the mom and pop stores before that. Those farmers need to go back to school and learn how to harvest sea algae to make Soylent.

You should take up the plight of the US postal service. They are pretty much useless now but oh the humanity! We must still get our junk mail! To me, the US postal services is starting to be like religion: completely unnecessary.


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PostPosted: April 4, 2018, 12:20 pm 
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Coal: Must save at all costs!

Farming: Eh.. Who needs it?

Got it!

As far as subsidies go, there is definitely reform that needs to be done in that area but it's not as black and white as you are making it out to be.

Quote:
In fact, current farm policy allocates two out of every three farm subsidy dollars to the top 10 percent of subsidy recipients while completely shutting 60 percent of farmers out of subsidy programs
...
As a result, taxpayers are paying billions of dollars to subsidize prosperous farms. Making matters worse, many of the large farms that receive subsidies have used these funds to buy out small farms and consolidate the agriculture industry.


This isn't good for anyone! Except for the fat cat 'corporate 'farms'.

I doubt that the top 10% will be the ones impacted by the retaliatory tariffs.

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PostPosted: May 7, 2018, 7:41 pm 
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Trumps Approval ratings on the rise!

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/07/politics ... index.html

Quote:
The President's improving issue ratings come amid a sharp rise in positive impressions of how the country is doing. Overall, 57% say things are going well in the US today -- up from 49% saying the same in February -- which is the largest proportion to say so since January of 2007.


Wow more people think that US is doing better than at anytime during Obama's reign.

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Trump's numbers are climbing. Approval is up 4 points on the economy to 52%, the first time it's topped 50% since March 2017; up 5 points on foreign trade to 43% approval; and his numbers on immigration have improved 4 points since February, with 40% now approving. On handling foreign affairs, Trump's approval rating tops 40% for the first time since April of 2017,


Another 2 years and he'll be 50% plus on everything. Whatever it takes to keep Hillary out of office.

His lowest marks come from bullshit stuff like fucking hookers etc which doesn't really matter. Fat boy Clinton was getting blowjobs from interns in the oval office and Hillary killed people (ref: Vince Foster). It's safe to say a hooker or two isn't a big deal.


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PostPosted: November 20, 2018, 2:05 pm 
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Stock market skid intensifies, erasing 2018 gains for Dow, S&P 500


2018 gains erased. Thanks, Trump!

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PostPosted: November 20, 2018, 3:27 pm 
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It's because investors are scared of the seats picked up by the libs. They're going to ruin the bull run!


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